Grace & Truth Ministries review: Religious harassment 220

(4th line correction: 'when you begin to not feel...") sorry.

I have learned to decipher/ to mentally 'distil' properties out of one act/man/speech...for the sake of my own sanity and that of others. You can have one person controlling others while having a father relationship while having them work out their deficiencies while having their deficiencies take on their own nature all in the context of "ONE" speech and/or dialogue and/or relationship. When you begin to not feeling healthy in an environment --though--EVERYTHING that is 'spoken' is correct/ right... IT can STILL BE WRONG FOR ***YOU*** TO BE THERE!
It has been my previous statement several times in this forum that I needed a 'hammer' to Drive me out of myself..That 'hammer' was Jim. Jim is an extremely effective 'hammer' for MANY. He's blessed that way. I continue to say that I don't regret being there or experiencing all that I did there. I, actually, have NO ill will towards any one associated with Jim or Jim himself. I hope he continues to preach and teach. This forum has been and will be for a limited time, I'm sure, a cathartic experience for me and a place for Dialogue that I have Never had before concerning Jim's Church and the wandering disciples/vagaries of it. I say this in all respect that I might have a defense for my own faith. When Jim's 'wandering scholars' or 'disciples' or 'church members' want to tell me that MY relationship with GOD is skewed BECAUSE I'm not doing a mantra of mock agonies due to my flesh's condition in the properly timed place of ''Church-out-ianity'' ---you can hunt a snark or chase a red-herring. The EVIL is right in front of you for Judging me. DIALOGUE IS THE THING... not repetition of 'holy-speak'...which, "HOLY-SPEAK" is not wrong...as long as you APPROPRIATE ALL YOUR WORDS WITH CARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE...

Yes, well said MHJ...you are a member of Jim's church, therefore, you spoke well... I am not a member of Jim's church...therefore, I spoke with arrogance. Obviously, Jim can sense the humility..the back burner of MHJ's flesh... Nope to all responses off this page... This is a perfect forum for me for now. I don't need to email or talk privately on a phone with any of you. Talking to Jim is like having a re-run of unbanked orders and responses necessary to avoid argument. Agreeing, over and over again that my flesh needs to repent again and again and again and that I need to be in Jim's church in order to have the proper soup mix of 'repent-death-fellowship-crucifixion-congregation imposed mantras' under the "head-speaker'' monitorship. It's simply death of the mind and soul to re-run the same words and orders that had meaning in their proper place but have become mantras DUE to the fear that i'm not parroting 'Jim-speak' in order to appease the head monitor. I say that this forum is good for my soul and my mind in that I can go back and re-read what I had REALLY felt like typing. Due to this forum, I am also able to read the 'language' of Jim's members with an objectivity that I could never have had in the midst of Jim's 'congregation speak'. I'm done with being a part of your church. You guys can be buddies and judge me more if you'd like...Tell me and everyone how proud I am and how humble and meek MHJ is for "saying'' phonetically...the words "rebuke, repent'''...so what?! .. I could care less what both of you think about my internal feelings and/or relations with GOD and the people surrounding me in my life. I'm seriously not a part of a 'gathering' that adopts the language of it's leader without the will to think past what Jim says is 'really good' because he just said it himself. That's the lack of 'will' that I cannot stand. I might be a spiritual disaster in your eyes but I am tired of being dishonest to myself with false polity and false humility towards a man and his congregation in order to not be scolded or ostracized or called an unrepentant man...which is ABSOLUTELY not true. I'll answer to God through Christ. I would say and show what Has happened to me in my life as a testimony to Christ...and, partly due to me NOT being at your congregation...but, you guys would run it down ...simply because i'm not at your church...which MUST therefore be heretical.

Well said "MHJ". I say that because you have placed your flesh on the back burner (death to self) and with a degree of meekness expressed yourself more clearly. I truly am interested in speaking to "KJ". As you mentioned MHJ, Bro Kyle you don't know everyone and it would appear that you did get a little frustrated and went on about MHJ's mistakes. We are brothers. You attending "jims" ministry or not. (For it is Christs word that we hold dear to our hearts... written there by God) Public fussing amongst brothers is not cool. Jesus said we who give up much for his name sake has gained a hundred fold brothers and sisters. None being perfect let us continue this conversation amongst brothers. email me you two. And we can find a common media to chat together and break bread together. Agape and Phileo

myheroisjesus email me! lfis492a@aol.com

Kyle Jones, when i get a chance i want to catch up on the conversation then speak to you in regards to your comments on leaving the fellowship of my ministry.

KJ said "as to MHJ...ok, rebuke me for what, again?...I have no idea what you are taking about...I'm just feeling sorry for you. Concerning me being 'waxen fat'... i do hot yoga.. I'm tight, trim and fighting lean. As concerning 'waxen fat' in any other way... what the HECK are you talking about?"
My rebuke was for you doing church by yourself, and for the way you beat others over the head with your knowledge. I apologize for not clarifying that.
KJ said "I was ''''rebuked''' by MHJ...because MHJ HAD TO set their wounds (Him/Her?) in order to go back to camp and 'discuss' their ''''sufferances'''''. MHJ does not know me...other than...I"M SURE OF IT...the ostracizing words of JIM himself... If this is true...I would LOVE for MHJ to tell me this."
You were rebuked for the reason stated, just as I would want to be rebuked myself. I know what you have said in these comments, that is enough objective evidence for me to LOVE you enough to tell you. As for me judging you, I did not. I just have my doubts by objective evidence. From the mouth the heart speaks.
Now, KJ said "BECAUSE...(in their minds) ..there is 'no truth abounding in any physical location than the ground from which Jim stands and his congregation follows."
TRUTH is wherever the TRUTH is spoken and done, I am trying to do TRUTH. God say's judge righteous judgment. You are accusing those folks at his church and I am sure you do not know all of them.
BTW, you said ". i wouldn't dare say 'pro or con' to anything about you...and I would only talk to you about it...not make it a 'public forum' for judgement...that you, MHJ, have SOOO easily cast."
I do attend Grace and Truth. Do I think Jim is God? No. He is a man like you and I. I love Jim for what God has made him, a man with a passion for the word and the flock, all of the flock not just those who attend His church. I hope we get a chance someday to speak one on one, if it is God's will.

(correction...last two lines) >> ""----unless I talked to you...i wouldn't dare say 'pro or con' to anything about you...and I would only talk to you about it...not make it a 'public forum' for judgement...that you, MHJ, have SOOO easily cast.

I like to get up and read...and re-read statements such as MyHeroisJesus (MHJ) to find where I am this morning...or whatever time I get up---or go to sleep. This morning, I'm more aware than ever, that MHJ ''''rebuked''' without thought to all that has been said in the prior statements between me and others...or me and MHJ. It's the "''automation'''' of a cult follower to say something like that. The basis of this is fairly simple and very complex. The simple---or, not too convoluted idea...is that HEAVEN ON EARTH...to the congregation at Jim's...is at Jim's. If you are not """OVER THERE"""" you are probably not saved.. BECAUSE...(in their minds) ..there is 'no truth abounding in any physical location than the ground from which Jim stands and his congregation follows. They '''correctly''' rub elbows and are '''properly healed'''' by one another due to the 'wounds' that they have received from being cantankerous to "THOSE"" not of Jim's flock. I KNOW their mentality ...i was DIRECTLY in it. I was ''''rebuked''' by MHJ...because MHJ HAD TO set their wounds (Him/Her?) in order to go back to camp and 'discuss' their ''''sufferances'''''. MHJ does not know me...other than...I"M SURE OF IT...the ostracizing words of JIM himself... If this is true...I would LOVE for MHJ to tell me this. ...oh, yeah...MHJ, are you in JIM's Church...do you '''''claim'''' to be a member?... (for MHJ, this question is the analogy to the Romans calling up the early Christians to be answered for)

Both of my parents died ---nearly back to back last year, my wife and I were having major problems--partly due to this. I finally talked to Jim in the last month or so...after a few years of not talking. All he said to me was "so, how does it feel to be alone...with your parents dead and your wife gone?''.. " you need to be over here with real believers''.

as to MHJ...ok, rebuke me for what, again?...I have no idea what you are taking about...I'm just feeling sorry for you. Concerning me being 'waxen fat'... i do hot yoga.. I'm tight, trim and fighting lean. As concerning 'waxen fat' in any other way... what the HECK are you talking about?

Kenneth, Honestly, I couldn't argue against that. I could also argue that Jim has tried, despite his absolutely abused self, to reach through...Most importantly, I think that if Everyone could get past the style of Jim and Jim could stop mentioning himself and You only read what he said...MOST of what he says...teaches...you would find most of his teaching is inarguable. I don't mind watching/ listening to Jim...because I know where he's coming from...but, to anyone else...It's more and more of a turn off. Honestly, I'm really here enjoying the varieties of people's hatred, love, misdirection in all of it and the "judgements'' by Jim's followers at me that think they are doing a Holy act. ---Like MHJ. I've known Jim longer than all of them..all of his cult followers...I'm really enjoying seeing how far off all of you are. I've known him for 29 years since I was teenager to present. I attended his Church for ca 2 years in [protected]. I was such a strong follower...possibly the strongest ---going into buildings --screaming 'repent'...completely separating from friends, parents, society, College, my career, all of it...Because "God was coming back and there was little time...and 'all is Babylon' ". I was a Marine before that and a crazy destructive kid before that... I had had a BAD upbringing in my teens and needed a head-strong father figure like Jim to lead me. Well, there he was. I starting really hanging out with him at the age of 20 and began attending his church gatherings around that time. I came back and forth to his church...after I had left ...nearly violently 3 times. ---like once every 5 years to see what was happening. In many ways, I became established as a strong independent thinker...once I left. Possibly, stronger than most people I meet on average.

An argument can be made that much of the 1st century Greek and Roman culture was bi-sexual. The rampant problem was not the condition of love for two people of the same sex---rather, the hyper focus for the sex alone for the same gender. This was the major problem.. Simply put, "rampant pornography" or "eros" alone (applied to same or 'other' sex relations)" verses "rampant Love" for one another in a healthy relationship. Paul directly addressed Homosexuality without mincing words because Homosexuality was being defined for exactly that...>> 'a focus of sex that seems to be in practice with the same sex' ---and "THAT'' alone. Again, Paul was not ministering to the world and mandating this to the unbeliever...he was addressing the believers within the Churches of Asia Minor who had culturally adopted such isolated 'eros' acts----bringing them into the Church---challenging Church discipline and propriety wherein God had forbidden such acts of isolation from the other embodiments of Love. I.e., this act of Homosexuality was not the Expression of the Creator God of this Cosmos.

i meant "i did several lectures''...on the 3rd line..

ok, MHJ...
I think your intention is fine...My lists/complaints for the 'western mode' of christendom are as follows (the things that I do NOT like or believe about the Western-Modern-Church) --- there should be better exegesis as to what Predetermination vs Free Will means. I did a several lectures on "WILL" and "FREE"...ALL to show that I have found and do use 15 Distinguishing terms for "FREE" and 66 terms for "WILL"... and with ANY combination of ANY two types of "Free'' and "Will''...they ALWAYS mean something different. So, "FREE WILL" is NOT so simply contrasted to "SOVEREIGNTY" in the vernaculars of, let's say, Baptists vs. Calvinists...or WHATEVER... /
As to Christmas and Easter, ---my argument would be the same as Jim's in this case...I don't see how any Church worth the time to enter it's doors can not only bring Christmas and Easter into it's 'establishment' ...but, never discuss the obvious history behind them...at least...to inform the congregation about the origins of such ritual/practice/observance, etc. SEMIOTICS. Semiotics --- 21st century ideas/ various aeons "English" and American translations... FROM a 1st century text...back to 'modernity' to TRY and put our ideas...our American ideas to a FIRST CENTURY society...is ludicrous! ... Therefore, again, Jim does a wonderful job in this area to rectify this... Other scholars such as Richard Bauckham, N.T. Wright...do a fabulous job in different areas than Jim to 'rectify' this '''''gap'''' and align the semiotic relationships of Words to text to era to meaning to significance.
I have over 300 lectures to back up what I believe ---not as many as Jim's ...but...I hyper-focus on such things as I have lightly mentioned here.
As to Toyatofan123...it's alright... I don't know you enough to make a judgement like that... I have known 'brain-dead' people...that is, they died right there, in front of me, and were concluded 'brain dead' in order to 'term' the patient. As to tooth fairy... there is a 'collective' body of works on "fairy'' by Tolkien, Shippey, etc... that would prove that, a "tooth fairy'' is just as real in fiction as you are as a scholar... that is to say...there's a LOT more documentation within 'narratives' that Tooth Fairies have a 'reality' ...a motion, a cause, ... actually, more so than the variables to prove that you are a scholar. Keep it coming Toyotafan123... You give me that Fire! I just adore it! and, may the Tooth Fairy visit you in certain ways...and May Jesus approach you in different ways. Read Umberto Eco...good stuff.

Kyle, the Bible says by objective evidence we can and should discern between good and evil, I am not superior to anyone, including you. I am nothing. I was referring to the way that you refer to others and the condescending tone of your comments. By your remarks I believe that you are a very misguided person, self will do that to us.

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. Job 12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

God has brought about in me, the ability to highly esteem Him, the Rock of my salvation. I hope that one day He brings you into obedience and causes you to stop having church by yourself. I will not repent of rebuking you, because that is what I am called to do.
myheroisJesus

I've had the displeasure of actually meeting Jim Brown on multiple occasions; in one instance, he was wandering about the local fairgrounds wearing a t-shirt that proclaimed "GOD DOES NOT LOVE EVERYBODY" and just begging for someone to come up and question him about it. I've witnessed him surreptitiously and sloppily trying to press his DVD's into unsuspecting individuals hands while slobbering on about his version of God's word - according to him, only HIS interpretation of God's word is the purest and just, while anyone else who preaches the word is highly misdirected and destined for Hell. I've never met such an angry and intolerant person in my life, especially one who also claims to be a man of God. Strangely enough, there are others who teach predestination just as Jim does, yet even they have distanced themselves from him, they proclaim him to be a false prophet and they do not wish to be associated with him in any way - they see his loose interpretations of the ancient Greek text as inaccurate and mainly self-serving. Jim rails endlessly about the evils of celebrating "Christ-Mass" (he and his followers cannot even bring themselves to utter the word Christmas) and of being prideful, yet if you listen closely to his words, he comes off as one of the most prideful humans you'll ever encounter. He openly calls out and sneers at any preacher whose beliefs do not mirror his own. Recently, I've studied up on Jim and his so-called church, I've reviewed his literature and DVD materials, and I've even questioned members and former members, and from what I've seen of his followers and trusted "lieutenants", it's apparently okay and even encouraged in their church for the "sheep" to lie, deceive, manipulate the truth, harass others, spread hate, and even solicit gay sex on the internet (see this link: http://www.realjock.com/Tuck) as long as it's all in the name of God and as long as you don't celebrate Christmas. I believe that a big part of his personal issues arise from the fact that one year when he was a little boy, he didn't get that little red bicycle he wanted for Christmas, and he has never gotten over it. His followers are a sad and pathetic lot who have little direction in their own lives and are pitifully drawn to someone like him - a slightly charismatic "leader" who feeds off their anger and hurt and pain against the world, and he legitimizes their grievances against anyone who has wronged them in life, and in return, he receives and feeds off their sick admiration and blind devotion to him - its the perfect co-dependent relationship, but it has nearly nothing to do with either God's Grace or Truth. It's a little too much like a cult for my comfort...

"MHJ" refers to my addressing "myheroisjesus'' in this dialogue

oh yeah, MHJ, your snarky remark about me being 'intellectually superior'---thank GOD I know enough to not be in your circles of thought--- if I were intellectually challenged and 'under' you --- well then, i'm sure that you would beat me all the same by your intellectual superiority... There's no good way to be 'under' an ignorant man/woman like you. It's your arrogance that I despise...in particular, your 'judgements' coming from your arrogance.. Now THAT is plain stupidity.

---and, yes, I am a Christian who refers to the 1st century Original meaning and historical context of the Bible. I do NOT muddle the 21st century polyglot of language and it's varieties of meaning to any earlier text. Even if a document is 50 years old I will be careful to understand the semiotic relationship of words as was used back then and not interpolate a 21st century meaning. Different context/ different time. I think it's a joke to use Modern AMERICAN-English words to convey a 17th century text --King James Version - to a 1st century text. Exponentially, are we removed from such a text! Jesus didn't speak King James English--Jacobean English--FOR GOD'S SAKE!

at to 'myheroisjesus'---- The word 'hero' is a pagan's (a-moral) term...which I have no problem in defining. The word "Pagan" means 'natural'...'country dwelling'... it was not a 'moral' term, initially... neither was the word "heathen''' a bad term...nor 'villain'--'villager' -- Find better 21st century terms, if anyone wants, to condemn people by...These words have a beautiful origin and should be recognized for what they were. We, as a sick society, have taken beautiful words and corrupted them by our 'churchianity' to judge those are 'not us'. Take a look at the word "HEATHEN" . "Heathen'', by the Anglo Saxon Etymon means ''one who lives 'over there' ''. So, the 'pagan' term "hero'' meant 'a man of esteem'. So, (to mock "myheroisjesus (MHJ)' " style----- MHJ worships an 'esteemed man'. This "esteemend man'' is not the Biblical Jesus. "Esteemed" HE was NOT

Paul goes around to all the 'complaints' boards and types in his insults without any backing. I take this board as a serious forum and wish that others could speak intelligently about the nature of accusations. There are none against JIm. He has spoken clearly, plainly, without guile, and with a pure heart. I, again, make it clear that I'm not his church member---- For me, it's a cultural way of life that I adopted early in the way of going to Church. I've never felt the desire to get to close to a 'governed' relationship with anyone---including marriage, school, work..etc. Therefore, I am my own boss...except for my relationship to GOD directly...which i have NO problem with being governed by HIS Word and Spirit. I am being honest as I can...maybe, as I get older, I will find the desire to be at a Church...maybe Jim's.. But, Thank GOD I can speak freely and act freely on this. I want to stand clear on this: I think JIm Brown is without a doubt the man who is bringing solid information that leads to solid truths into our society which--our society---can no longer handle. We are too frenetic, too frenzied to listen to what a Teacher like Jim is saying.

Paul... say anything that is in your misguided thoughts about this conversation. You're saying nothing because you are afraid. You are afraid to let anyone know how mentally limited you are. I would love to see your handwritten --non-spell-checked medieval scrivener's foppery ..that, indeed, you would grammatically rape. C'mon Paul...speak. Say/type ANYTHING of your mental 'de-construction' past the poo that you've been sending.
Just remember, Paul---you are the one throwing things at me that you can't back up...nor the things you've said against Jim.

Previous 12 Next

Paul... say anything that is in your misguided thoughts about this conversation. You're saying nothing because you are afraid. You are afraid that if you let anyone know how mentally limited you are. I would love to see your handwritten --non-spell-checked medieval scrivener's foppery ..that, indeed, you would grammatically rape. C'mon Paul...speak. Say/type ANYTHING of your mental 'de-construction' past the poo that you've been sending.
Just remember, Paul---you are the one throwing things at me that you can't back up...nor the things you've said against Jim.

Please answer the Scriptures I provided. I was just asking you to explain your statement "the lines of category are infringed". I was hoping you could not smell me from where you are... oh you meant heartfelt. I see you think you are mentally superior to most, I see right through your vain deceit. You think God doesn't? I kinda doubt that you are Christian at all. Repent and believe.

Paul Vance... You really are ignorant. Go to Jim's and learn enough to know what you don't know. Then, stay quiet for a long time.

What you are referring to is the 'nature' of man. You might look at your Greek to find what manner of "man'' the text is talking about. I am speaking as though Jim is a 'renewed' man in Christ. Jim's gifts are in digging deep. There are many people turned off from learning anything more from Jim due to Jim calling everyone stupid that doesn't have every doctrine right --by Jim's exegetical standards---which are high.

As to 'binding for ''us"--and 'we'...I have no idea where 'you' are coming from/ 'who' ''you'' are as to why you ask this/ or who 'us' is collectively? If you are an atheist...you need not bother with 'crazies' like '''us Christians''... if you are a Christian... well, of course your flesh is fallen. If you are in Jim's church---- you need to get more poignant with what you need to know from me.

Kyle, do you regard the following verses as binding for us? We cannot disregard the commands in the Bible that state we are not to practice the traditions of men.
Matthew 15:9 ‘ But in vain do they worship ME, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. ’” and
Mark 7:20 And He was saying, “ That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
Could you elaborate on "the lines of category are infringed"?

wow...I feel like I've talked myself into a blank space with an indictment against Jim. WELL, I'm not here for that...I, initially, was here to stand up for what Jim has done and is doing. Jim has a healthy study habit which has/ does produce tremendous information in support of the Bible. I feel like a viable candidate to speak for that aspect of Jim's ministry. But, within this 'filtering' of argumentation I have come to realize by my own words that my feelings are just as true for not going to his church. My feelings should have NOTHING to do with those who feel healthy within that church environment. It was Jim who did pull me out of so many problems so long ago ... he was 'the hammer' that knocked me out of me... I have evolved into who I am because of that...and evolved out of going there. I don't make this a moral implication or mental evolution...it's just that I'm not there anymore because of what I feel to be 'in lack of' a healthy environment for my own family. I hope this has helped anyone --- maybe only me.

as to "Saturday (Saturn's Day), Sunday (Sun-Day), Monday (Moon Day), Tues, etc. ... well, all English-American named days have 'pagan' or 'heathen' appellations. None of these 'Days' seem ''pagan'' to me, ... nor does the 'Day' when Easter is observed or the 'Day' of Samhain nor does the Sun-god-'Day' that lands on December 25th seem evil to me by it's natural 'day' or 'course' -----for that matter, nor are the hours in the course of the day 'pagan' ...though, some have done just that...such as the idiotic 'witches-hour' if taken seriously...otherwise, it's fun stuff on "halloween''. It's the '''fusion'''' of 'a-moral' and/ or immoral observances joined to Theological Christianity --that being practiced on a given annual or cyclic day that I deny. There's my maxim for that.

"You *can* be aTheologian" (minus the one 'can') ..sorry.

Paul, go take a mind bath. In Christ, there are no "pagan'' days...only in many western 'christendoms'... I don't observe the Sun God Day on the 25th anymore than you do...maybe you do... My personal opinion and belief is that Christ is to be honored through the 'pagan' rituals as you lay claim to, which, ultimately, are not 'pagan' at all. Man put's their appellations and ideas to *something (such as an arbitrary or not Day)* indifferent to terms such as 'pagan' or 'not pagan'. Don't address me, Paul...and as to the 'loon' remark: you can't even spell enough to make a judgement call. I have Phd. that allows me to encourage you out of your form of lunacy. Be assured, Paul, you have had no solid ground to call me a loon. Get hooked on Daily spelling exercises and phonics...it helps. As to Brenda, I didn't deny Symbolism...I want to distinguish the categories from Pagan (non moral/ and moral) 'symbolisms' and "Christic" symbolism. Dr. Walter Dale has written 5 treatise on "Baptism'', it's ''symbolism'' and efficacious nature---i.e. the 'reality' of "Baptism'' not being H2O. Therefore, the symbolism being the act...no longer 'signs' or 'symbols' needed as guides...since you are already at your destination. Lastly, I do not attend JIm's organized functions of any sort. The reason why is this: You can can be a "Theologian" but not a minister. You can be a pastor but not a good Theologian. Jim is a great 'digger' for truths. I honor that...but he has definitely had a heavy hand with those who have needed a pastor. Some of those people are forever hurt. Jim fails in 'pastoral-ship' in this regard ---the lines of category are infringed upon under his organization. THIS is why I don't attend Jim's ''Church".

I"d rather laugh with the siffers then cry with the saints, the siffers are much more fun,

...and, "indigenous"--- I never said that any of my 'C & P' was 'indigenous' or not. If it's erroneous I don't care where it came from. It just so happens that Most Western High (Western-American Ecumenicalism/ Episcopal-Roman Catholic or Lower Church form Denominations such as Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Church of Christ, etc... come from (or are) Roman Catholic in origin. What I AM saying ---'indigenously' speaking ----is that the Ante-Nicene Era --Palestinian geographical land plot IS the Era and Real Estate that most closely represents the original Christic formula of Christian ideas.

symbolism? ... Explain.

Roman Catholic..i.e.

every day is a "rest" in God. C & P ? Calvinism/ Protestantism?... Please tell me you're a Catholic

i meant to say 'a doctrinal argument'. --sorry