Watermark Community Church Dallas Pastor Todd Wagner in Question — Dialogue and questions concerning todd wagner and watermark community church
Is this really a biblical church? Who believes that Watermark is truly a New Testament fellowship other than indoctrinated seminarians and the biblically illiterate?
Is all remarriage sin as they teach?
Does Watermark's leadership truly hold God's Word final authority or is there a mixture?
Is "eternal security" no matter what biblical as they teach? I mean if someone gets saved and then falls away and dies in sin, will they still go to Heaven?
Todd Wagner is a cloaked Calvinist which is a system of theology he learned at DTS and is not at all biblical. Why does he hide this? Why does he espouse these 5 points, all heretical and subtly teach them?
Why doesn't Watermark use the King James Bible? Why do they use the corrupt NASB version?
Why is there so little genuine New Testament fellowship among those who attend Watermark?
At Watermark, is there an over emphasis placed on church membership?
It's a known fact that many who are members at Watermark are not born again.
Is this a country club or a true New Testament gathering to worship Christ?
Is their vain attempt to put people together and then call it biblical community a testimony of their fleshly motives and endeavors? Is it merely a fabricated "fellowship"? Is it producing the fruit of true Christian fellowship or is it merely for the self-serving purposes of the leadership?
Why is so much emphasis placed on church membership?
Why are people who don't choose to become members shut out of activities?
Are individual members truly learning God's Word for themselves?
Why are those who attend Watermark for years still scripturally illiterate?
When have you ever met a so-called member of Watermark who is actually soul winning, that is, doing the great commission?
What kind of fruit is Watermark producing?
Is Watermark a corporate "church" set up for the benefit of its leaders?
Some have related that the fruit of this seems to be the coldness, the lack of authentic Christian love produced by the Holy Spirit.
Is the leadership at Watermark controlling as some have stated?
Why are millions of dollars spent on the head pastor and real estate, including extra campuses?
Has Watermark truly been set up to further the true Gospel of Jesus Christ or make a name and build a legacy for Todd Wagner?
Is Todd Wagner a millionaire? If so, does that reflect Christ and His apostles? (no)
a verified customer
Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years. All of the years I attended Kanakuk I had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd. If you were not From Highland Park or University Park Todd Had no use for you. If your Parents were not rich and someone. Todd could use he had no use for you. I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. Todd loves and worships money and attention. Todd uses God to accomplish his goals of money, his park Cities home and a bunch of followers who are not bright enough to see who Todd really is. Todd could care less about Jesus Christ. Todd uses Jesus Christ to get rich. He is full of Pride, never apologizes and is the fakest person I have ever met.
@Pdan10 is obviously a seminary dupe who gullibly bought into the misinformation he rec'd in the jesuit "protestant" seminary he attended.
To say that the NASB is taken from "the latest/more recent manuscripts" is delusional.
The latest in no way mean the correct manuscripts.
HOW does that explain the butchering of God's Word?
WHERE is the 2nd half of Romans 8:1 Dan? Why did the nasb chop it?
what about Matthew 17:21? WHERE did it go?
Oh what about the blood of Christ removed from Colossians 1:14?
DOUBT-LADEN FOOTNOTES
The NASV like many other modern translations contains many doubt-laden footnotes such as:
‘Many mss.(manuscripts) do not contain this verse.’
‘The earliest mss read.’
‘Some ancient mss add.’
‘Many ancient authorities read.’
‘Not found in the most of the old mss.’
‘Some mss insert.’
‘Some ancient mss do not contain.’
Unlike a good Chain-Reference Bible that points the reader to other texts on the same subject, these footnotes clearly show that the NASV translators, whilst putting on a show of apparent fairness, are really unsure of their own product. ‘Is the NASV God’s Word for Today or Not?’ They obviously don’t know or don’t believe, else they would not insert so many conflicting footnotes; which not only cast doubt on the King James Bible, but also on their own version which within 28 years of its publication in 1971 is now being phased out.
Learn Greek and Hebrew? 2 dead languages?
That is a falsehood learned in seminary.
Lame.
Did God give us His Word in our language? Yes or no please.
Did Jesus say the original languages would lead His people into the truth or the Holy Spirit. Did the LORD not give us the written Word IN OUR LANGUAGE? (John 14:26; 16:13-14) That's a yes or no question.
Never mind your high minded lies learned in seminary.
What did Jesus tell us?
Where did Jesus or His holy apostles ever instruct anyone to make sure they learn the original languages?
Don't even think about using the lame lie that "that was before we had the Bible in its full form" ... as if Christ Himself didn't know what was to come.
Todd Wagner is not open. He's stuck in his ways, has created a multi-million dollar empire selling a false gospel, misrepresenting Christ. He's not going to give up his earthly fortune for Christ.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
@grantp1992 I encourage you and everyone else on this thread to make sure all of your facts are straight before you make accusations or say things that are untrue. Most of the families that founded Watermark 20 years ago are still members of the body and some are even on staff.
I also would encourage all of you to live by Scripture if you are going to try to defend it. It is very easy to hide behind a computer screen and write slanderous comments about a man and an organization and not confront people in an attempt to live at peace with all men. Most of you weighed in about you OPINION on calvanism, translation of scripture, and church membership and that is exactly what they are, opinions. This is why many believers disagree over these topics. You want to know what is not an opinion, and is an explicit command in Scripture? Matthew 18, Romans 12:18, Hebrews 12:14... If you see specific sin in Watermark or have an issue with the way the Church Leadership is running this Church I encourage you to reach out to Todd Wagner and pursue peace, don't sit behind your computer and anonymously complain. I don't think that is what Jesus had in mind when he was praying for unity of the body in John 17. If you want to make a difference in church culture, then be someone who unifies it, not divides it!
I encourage you to seek out understanding and peace with Todd if you have an issue with him. I guarantee you, he would be open to hearing your concerns and would be willing to share with you why he and other leaders at Watermark prayed about and decided to set things up the way they have here.
@lwerhan Hello. I have attended WM for several years. I came from a Charismatic Evangelical (Arminian) background. A few of the things I read on here, I can relate to. The church members can be very impersonal and unfriendly and sometimes rude . They chalk that up to it being a large church. But I see it more due to their overall uniformity (career status, wealth, ethnicity, etc...). I see it more as a xenophobia. I refrain from using the word cult because that’s truly not the right word, yet, at times, it can feel more like a social club. While Todd has said the comments seen here about ReGen, it is not an attempt to shame or guilt trip others. It’s a 12 step program, similar to CR to deal with hurts, pains, addiction, etc. One of the truths that the church functions under is that we are all broken people living in a fallen, sinful world. If you recognize that you are struggling with some sort of sin, hardship, etc., ReGen is a resource for people to grow in their walk with the Lord on a more personal, intimate level. In other words, when you recognize that you are broken and need to deal with something, reaching out for help is a sign of spiritual growth. ReGen is one of the ways to get help. While I can’t read thoughts, I really doubt that Todd meant it any way other than to promote ReGen as a potential place to get help and grow in your walk with the Lord.
Regarding Todd, I have met him, interacted with him and have watched him very carefully both on and off stage. Todd is by far one of the most transparent, genuine church elders I’ve encountered.
Every pastor or teacher that I have heard at some point has said it taught something that I’m not sure of, is foreign to me or is false teaching according to MY interpretation of the Scriptures. The scriptures say that not to believe every to try the spirits whether they are of God. As a believer, I have to guard my heart to whatever I hear or read and use the Scriptures as my guide. Todd teaches truth of what he has learned or what has been revealed to him from the Scriptures. Is Todd a Calvinist? I have no idea. Have I gotten that from his teaching? No. Is he a false teacher? No, I do not believe so. Again, you may disagree with his interpretations and consequent views on a particular component.
At the end of the day, Todd is a believer and brother in Christ. As another has said, reach out to him. Rather than speculating or arguing over words, get clarification or present your hurts to him. He’s pretty easy to contact. I think you’d be surprised to find a man that has a great heart for the people of God. Most importantly, if you feel that he’s not teaching the right things, pray for him. Pray that God reveals Himself to Todd.
@AxtonEllis The whole CR (celebrate recovery) scam is a psychologizing of the faith of the gospel. Total false. It's simply not biblical. Studying the early church in the Word of God reveals the simplicity of their gatherings and how their worship was to Christ as they served each other. WM is a big business and as such, keeps the money flowing in by intentionally removing cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith and creating a social club environment. If lives are being changed, it's in spite of WM and not because of it. I personally doubt that many lives are being changed by God's glory. There were no mega churches in the New Testament and the only reason they are mega today is because someone is perpetrating a busine$$ plan.
@lwerhan I attended this church for 2 1/2 years. Todd Wagner and Watermark's other preacher are deceptive Calvinist who preach Calvinistic lies they try to hide. No one there seems to EVER grow spiritually because of the false teaching. This is the truth.
@AxtonEllis Todd Wagner is a deceptive Calvinist who does NOT preach the pure word of God. Calvinism is NOT the gospel.
Ask Todd if he attended DTS.
Also, most of those who he founded that church with are gone.
They saw it was a business, controlling, and nearly cultic.
Leglistic while feigning to be Christian.
"sacraments"???? What are you some catholic devil?
Did Todd Wagner attend a seminary?
There is no history of his participation in church or school/s, that I can find, other than starting the church in 1999, with a group of fellow believers. Also, I do not see anywhere on WM site their “Statement of Belief:” pertaining to God: (The Trinity, Jesus, the Son, Holy Spirit, the Cross, the Blood, and Sacraments), Authority of Scripture, Worship, Music, Fellowship, and Family.
@Laura Bella http://www.watermark.org/dallas/about/beliefs
DTS, Dallas Theological Seminary graduates are brainwashed with calvinism and intentionally hide it because they know a lot of people know it's false. Beware of any preacher who has has been to seminary
Calvinism is not Christianity and in fact is a diabolical perversion of biblical Christianity and the nature of God.
Yes, Todd Wagner is a Calvinist which means he is a false teacher.
He deceitfully hides this but can be seen on youtube preaching it.
Sick.
Todd Wagner is full of self, refuses to truly die to his self in humility and ask God to truly be Lord of his life and fill him with the Holy Spirit.
No, Wagner trust his own fault "education" and and business tactics.
Watermark is a business
they are not interested in truly honoring the Lord
I like this thread. Agree. As has been expressed, WM will never be a New Testament church because Todd Wagner will probably never repent and truly lay down his life and live according to the pattern of the NT church. He will never become teachable unless he truly repents. Todd Wagner needs the baptism of the Holy Spirit but will never receive this gift of the Holy Spirit. Wagner has refused to give his heart to Christ. If he ever does, he will cry out to the Lord to be filled. Todd Wagner has a lot to answer for on judgment day. As long as he’s going to chose to be a millionaire in this brief life, he will never repent and will be used of satan to mislead man to eternal perdition.
Think for a moment how Jesus and His apostles chose to be poor in this world. And think about how many other ministries, ministers could be funded if Todd Wagner wasn’t choosing to keep so much for himself.
Under the direction of Todd Wagner, WM advertises supposedly changed lives. It’s feel good advertising and is disingenuous. It’s all done to keep the money rolling in. Not an authentic ministry. Self congratulating. The programs WM has are instituted to indoctrinate the faithful members like a cult. Manipulating. As the previous poster noted, so it is: “The Re-Generation program is a great example of that. Members are encouraged to do this program to a point where it is manipulating members to think there's something lacking in their walk if they haven't committed to do Re-Gen. I heard Todd Wagner state one sunday, "there's two kinds of people here, those who have done Re-Gen and those who haven't."
As was previously shared, the WM is nothing but a bunch of DTS (dallas theological seminary) clones who are not a bit interested in what the Bible teaches. No conviction or fear of God but rather a continued following of dead traditions, manipulation and control of the members. Dead.
Advice: Leave. Stop waiting on Todd Wagner to repent and truly follow Christ. It will most likely never happen.
a verified customer
As one who was once a member of Watermark church, I can honestly say that this church is not ruled by God's Holy Spirit. It is a give glory to God but do it yourself kind of church. The word 'love and loving' is over used, misused a bit much in this church. I've observed that the more indoctrinated members of Watermark church become, the colder many become. I suspect this is due to the legalistic thought that dominates the culture of WM. Legalism does not allow the love and compassion of The Holy Spirit to operate in a believer's heart.
WM has many programs to deal with various life issues and if participants of specific programs are not helped or fail to experience life transformation (another overly abused word at WM) then it is deemed a failure on the part of the participant. The Re-Generation program is a great example of that. Members are encouraged to do this program to a point where it is manipulating members to think there's something lacking in their walk if they haven't committed to do Re-Gen. I heard Todd Wagner state one sunday, "there's two kinds of people here, those who have done Re-Gen and those who haven't." I myself participated in Re-Gen and tried desperately to fix myself and heal my issues while giving glory to Re-Gen but failed miserably. I was judged as being unrepentant and was cast off by my community group with the blessing and on the advice of the church leadership. That was their 'loving' thing to do to help me come to repentance. I've endured a very difficult and heartbreaking road in my recovery from that experience and I would not wish that on anyone ever. I've witnessed a friend who had great compassion and was so alive and basically on fire for Jesus become colder and trade their live and compassion for 'righteousness and 'loving' the WM way. Watermark would be a great church if the Holy Spirit were allowed to guide and lead it..fully and entirely. I believe that the WM leadership believes they are serving God and I believe many have come to know Jesus at WM
and I hope and pray that the believers and leaders that attend and serve WM will come to truly and deeply encounter Jesus in a way that leads them into all the Truth of Who He is and be led by His Holy Spirit alone.
2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
a verified customer
After reading these questions, I am finding 4 main threads. (1) There are some honest inquiries asked with sincere hearts, (2) I see many unfounded statements and false accusations regarding what the church actually teaches, One of the ten commandments is to not testify falsely (falsely accuse). That makes some of these questions detestable to God in and of themselves. (3) I also find a lack of love and honesty in them.As for the lack of love... 'nuff said. and (4) I see some that condemn their teachings as heresy simply because they do not line up with your legalistic understanding of some open-handed discussions. Its time for some people to learn to distinguish between actual wolves and sheep of different colors. After all, "Even if I have ALL knowledge and understand every mystery, but have not love, I AM NOTHING. (1 Cor. 13:2)
@toonups "Falsely accuse"? Well, you offered no defense to what was stated. Most of it seems pretty self evident, don't you think? Have you bee to WM? If so, I think you may wish to consider being honest about this. Todd Wagner is building a business and is a millionaire. They definitely over emphasize membership and mistreat those who aren't members there. Also, we've attended there for years and it's true that so many we met did not know Christ but were members there, etc.
Todd Wagner has the false idea that he can coerce individuals into "commitment" to Christ and often and wrongly blends commitment to Christ with church membership which is something no where found in Scripture. They grossly overuse and misuse the word "commitment."
Instead of just getting people into God's word for themselves, Watermark has created all kinds of other extra-biblical literature and things for their members to adhere to. Yet they claim to be a Bible church but in practice have all kinds of extra biblical stuff like this and the false doctrines of calvinism. Wagner would be called by some a neo-calvinist. But he is definitely a calvinist. I would warn anyone to stay clear of any calvinist. They are false believers and false teachers. Being a faithful attendee to watermark is taught as if it is equivalent to being in Christ, knowing Christ, and following Jesus. That is cultic. It's very subtle to most but once you start seeing it, then your eyes will be opened. They are leadership intensive like cults. Very plastic. Though they swear by calvinism's so called "doctrines of grace", there is little grace shown. Todd Wagner attempts to manufacture the fruit of the Holy Spirit which would otherwise be born in those who are truly becoming more rooted in Christ. So, it's just fake and fabricated. Read the graphic on the link before of Watermark's legally binding membership contract and you will see. Wagner seems to convey that he can make up all his own rules and regulations. Though claiming too be a Bible church, Watermark is not. this would help us to conclude that those who attend their, namely their "members", are not in God's Word for themselves as the Bible instructs us (2 Tim. 2:15).
Here's something else I found on watermark church:
" For Watermark members who will read be reading this, here is a link to a number of posts we have written on the legal ramifications of church covenants. In case you don't think it would even happen at your church, remember the Karen HInkley/Village Church scandal story that happened down the road from you a couple of years back. Ask your pastor why you are safe from such shenanigans. Also, ask the staff why you were not told that this is a legal contract before you signed it. We recommend that no one sign such agreements without first consulting an attorney. Better yet, we recommend that you never sign it. "
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/08/04/todd-wagner-watermark-church-seems-to-show-a-lack-of-empathy-for-moms-who-work-outside-the-home/
It is very true that Watermark is more interested in increasing church members than they are leading people to repentance and saving faith in Christ. My husband I attended there for a while and were constantly bombarded with pleas to join their church. Yet no one even knew if we were truly saved or not. Also, the people we talked to there, those who were members, we are not even sure they knew what born again meant. Watermark is a seeker sensitive church, not a congregation of truth seekers who are wanting to lay down their lives to truly follow Jesus. The leadership has designed it that way because they are building their own gig, empire.
Good input here, I agree with most of it. These are valid questions which Todd and WM owe answers to. And yes, DTS graduates selectively pick and choose what scriptures they are going to follow according to their own narrow scope taught them in seminary. They read the Bible with rose colored glasses. It's a scam but as some have already stated, the vast majority of people who attend these seeker sensitive type churches like watermark don't have their own life in God's Word and so are living blind and just go along with the fun and games of the entertainment on Sun. mornings
Watermark is nothing but a game. the leadership is in rebellion against God. There is no true authentic humility and brokenness. If there were, they'd be following the Biblical, New Testament model. Watermark is a bunch of shallow, Dallas Theologically degreed seminarians who only think out of a narrow rigid perspective from the commentaries they learned from at DTS. They don't have a kingdom perspective. They deny the need to be full of the Holy Spirit, the cross, and the Bible as the only rule of divine authority and truth. While claiming to be biblical, they certainly are not but most people don't know that because most people do not study God's Word for themselves.
I agree that this stuff should be questioned and that Todd Wagner owes and explanation as to why he is garnering such wealth in this world. This is completely opposite of Christ and His apostles. Unfortunately, it's a lucrative business he has going.
The fruit to look for is whether true followers of Jesus are being produced. From what I've seen, Watermark is pretty shallow with good music to romance it all. Don't need to be rude but this is not real Bible Christianity. All the programs and small groups are a fleshly attempt to bring about what only the Holy Spirit can produce. But WM is a DTS church that denies the Pentecostal New Testament experience and teaches the heresy of eternal security. So naturally there is no fear of God or true disciples.
I am always amazed at a minister who helps himself to millions of dollars while other ministries and ministers starve. Being wealthy in this world is not like Christ or His apostles at all. They chose to divest themselves. Paul said he was "poor yet making many rich." 2 Cor. 6:10 Pray for Todd Wagner to repent. When he does, he will liquidate and give to the poor and cease elevating himself in this world.
Notice that the leadership at Watermark thought highly enough of THEMSELVES to pay good money to get their logo and contact information at the top of this post. This self serving spirit is exactly what is being exposed here by these posts. They won't support other ministries or really help the people sitting right there on Sunday mornings but they sure do help themselves well. Todd Wagner loses no sleep because there are needs right under his nose and yet he's a millionaire from building this church business. SMH This church is all about getting people to join it, not Jesus. There is no such thing as church membership in the New Testament, not matter how hard they try to convince you of this. Show one Scripture that says people were even asked to become a member of any certain local church. None. Time to really repent.
The emphasis at watermark is to become a member of watermark, not Christ's family. It's lame and their whole push is to get more members to THEIR church. Most of those who attend watermark couldn't hold a five minute conversation about Jesus Christ. The people who aren't members of watermark are excluded from activities. The leadership has what sounds like good reasons for this but it's still just not right. Knowing Jesus is not emphasized or being a member of His body but rather being a member of watermark is what is greatly emphasized.
We've found that the vast majority of people attending WM are just in it for the social aspects of it and not truly becoming a real follower of Jesus. It's like a club pretty much. It's a lukewarm, DTS type social "church". It's true that no one at Watermark is actually preaching God's Word in their daily walk. Those who run it are basically marketers like Aaron in Deut. 32 who gave the people what they wanted. They won't have a Moses in that congregation because the leadership is in rebellion and doing things their own way, not God's.
At Watermark, there seems to be the idea that they determine what is true or false, instead of honestly allowing God's Word to be the final authority. There is no accountability to the body of Christ at large. It's more of an alignment with those who are departed from the faith with their calvinism and other organizations of men. There is no openness to be corrected. After all, they have a large membership base, so why should they be accountable? It's like a machine. The money is coming in and so they must be of God, right? Wrong. Some of the richest cults in the world are not of God. Having a lot of money to throw around probably means a church organization is false, not true.
I think the video the previous poster is referring to is on youtube and it can be found by searching "Real Truth Real quick calvinism"
This one: http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
I was just alerted to this same video by Wagner. Disturbing. Any person believing or teaching the doctrines of Calvinism is a heretic, period. This means whether they do so in a deceitful manner or blatant manner. The Bible came before Augustine a gnostic catholic from which Calvin admitted getting his doctrines.
Wow, I just looked at Todd Wagner's calvinism video on youtube. He is not a "cloaked calvinist" but rather a full blown false teacher of calvinism which is heretical. Todd needs to repent. Read this. It's shocking. You will have no questions as to the origins of calvinism when you read this and you will know that Todd Wagner is a false teacher: http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
@Bibletruth44 Thanks, I’ll look into it.
Can't put my finger on it but there are definitely some things that are not right at watermark.
Depending on the Holy Spirit is essential to the Christian life. WM seems to try to take the place of the Holy Spirit. As you look at how they've structured things, this seems obvious. Todd Wagner went to Dallas Theology Seminary and so, instead of following the Word of God, he denies the need for NT believers to be filled with the Spirit as they were at Pentecost. Sad.
@Jdawg1001 Are you sure he went to DTS? I couldn’t find anything on him.
Thanks. I hope we can have a loving discussion. We all have much to learn, including those who lead. Many times the Bible warns us of false leaders who wear sheep's clothing (Matt. 7:15). I do agree that the King James Bible is the true Word of God. The NASB (New American Standard) is definitely a corruption. DTS has misled so many of its students (who are now pastors) to believe the NASB is "the most accurate". Sorry but that is a crazy lie. After looking at the links below there will be no doubt that the NASB is of the enemy. Scary.
Dr. Frank Logsdon denounced his involvement. Here are a few verses compared and a short video clip of Dr. Logsdon:
http://www.websiteforgod.net/Blog/Entries/2012/3/18_NASB_Exposed..html
NASB EXPOSED: ouch this one is strong http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NASV/new_american_standard_version_exposed.htm
@Pdan10 So the translation that is based on more recent manuscripts rather than the oldest manuscripts that have been found is more accurate? How does that work? What makes the KJV the true word of God as opposed to the modern translations that rely on these older manuscripts? Are the oldest manuscripts that date more closely to the time of Christ less accurate than the ones that were available to the KJV translators? Why is the KJV more accurate than Tyndale's English translation that predated the KJV? Or you could go with Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Or you could just learn ancient Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew and just skip the translations altogether.
@JustADude Ah, I think you need to do some homework. The Nasb is missing a whole lot of words because it was taken from corrupt manuscripts.
https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NASV/new_american_standard_version_exposed.htm
@JustADude I totally agree with you! I think the man: Truthseeker 1087- needs to learn NT GREEK, Aramaic, and HEBREW!!
@Laura Bella So God kept His promise to give us His Word in our own language and yet you are saying believers have to learn 2 new languages to understand God's Word that He gave us in our own language? (Psalms 12:6-7) Sorry but do you hear how delusional that sounds? God check that fake "bible" again... see if Romans 8:1 is chopped in half. Compare to the real Bible, the King James Bible. Oh and go see if the words of Jesus are removed in Matthew 17:21. One more: See of the blood of Jesus has been removed from that corrupted fake "bible" in Colossians 1:14.
Well, there is some good at WM and yet, these questions seem valid. I've attended there for a while and have not felt true Christian love and church membership is not biblical and not according to kingdom truth. We see no such push among the earliest believers. Case closed. The problem is that men cannot produce this true Christian fellowship. All we can do is obey God and truly get into the Holy Spirit and Word and obey God, beginning in prayer. Only Jesus can build His church, right? "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt. 16:18