Silver Cloud Smoke ShopBad service


I have an ongoing monthly order with Silver Cloud Smoke Shop in which $77.76 is directly withdrawn from our bank account. They, as usual, sent an order processing notice by email on August 28, 2008. I then recieved this normal notice;

"This email is to let you know that your recent order (id:VRFD2E0069F8) with Silver Cloud Smoke Shop has been processed and is due to be shipped today 09/02/2008.

If you have any questions, please respond to this email at sales AT"

The money was withdrawn from our account.

I am home to recieve deliveries, and am fairly certain that I did not miss the delivery. There were no pick-up notices from the post office.

I wrote Silver Cloud sales and stated the problem on Sept. 10th to which I recieved no reply. I called then several times but their mailbox was full and I couldn't leave a message.

I then wrote their 'questions AT' email address on Sept. 15 in the a.m. and again had no reply.

This happened once before last year, however they responded immediately to my inquiry, and informed me of a computer glitch which required customer contact to resolve. They have otherwise been consistent and dependable. It may be the fault of the post office, but I have no evidence of this. The fact that I am unable to contact Silver Cloud points in their direction. Our low fixed income makes this whole situation especially hard on us.


  • Sh
    Sharron Young Sep 17, 2008

    I have had the same problem. However I did some research and discovered that the company was seized by ATF in Aug. The newspaper said all assets and computers were seized. How can their automated system still be operating? I suggest you file a dispute at your bank.

    I too have been with them for many years and had no problem til now and it seems that the problem is not directly Silvercloud's fault. I just hoope that the many people out money will get it back soon.

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  • Do
    Donna Barker Sep 18, 2008

    The same thing has happen to me, on Aug 25 they took my money and I never recievied my box so I stopped every 2 week delivery but not in time they took another 107.81 out of my account and did not recieve my box again this week. What can we do Im out 215.00. I never before had trouble,

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  • Je
    Jeff T Sep 18, 2008

    You just told my story exactly as it happened to me last week. Voice mail full, no fax, no Email reply. 09/08/08 took $171.15, and 10 days later which should have been three, nothing. File a claim immidiatly with your bank, block future auto debits from "American Native", and visit
    They are almost as cheap as silver cloud, and not involved with the law.
    JT / So Cal

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  • Ma
    Mary Lou Stewart Sep 18, 2008

    I, too, agree with the above statements. Sent my money in $176.15 on August 22, 2008 and have not received my merchandise. Phone overloaded, wrote no response. I, too, am on a limited income and losing that money really hurts. I know they were raided by the ATF in August but it states no criminal charges. Someone with some business expertise at Silver Cloud should be contacting us about the disposition of our orders. If they want to keep future business they need a lot of PR going on now and the former customers satisfied.

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  • Ka
    Kathy Sep 19, 2008

    Same thing here! My last order was supposed to be 8/27 and that was the day they were raided. Since then no email at any of their addresses, and the voicemail box at the 800 number is full. I am still trying to find someone out there to talk to. The owner is San Ildefonso pueblo First Lieutenant Governor Paul Rainbird. If I come up with any contact info I will post here

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  • Sk
    Skip Sep 19, 2008

    Same Here:
    They did get raided by the feds. My question is: It is not illegal for us to buy smokes online so do the feds owe us our money? This is a political thing brought on by our Govenors. Contact that traiter govenor there in NM and demand that he get us our money back. I only lost about $65.00 bucks but it wipes out all the savings I managed by buying them online. Ofcourse we will be demanized by the press and the Government so I bet our chances are slim but still... Where are our freedoms going, this is ALL ABOUT MONEY for the STATE. By the way it is the infamous ATF that is doing this brought on by a lame complaint that silver cloud was breaking "SOME" law. They can't define the law because it doesn't exist.

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  • Iv
    Ivy Sep 22, 2008

    Hi, did anybody hear anything yet? I sent $210 on August 26 and I called and emailed like all of you. If anyone has any info at all, could you let us know. Thanks.

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  • Cr
    Crypto Sep 22, 2008

    I sent a money order (for over $100) to Silver Cloud in August. I received an email confirmation a week later saying that my money order had been received and my order would be shipped out. To date, I have not received my order. I have sent several emails to Silver Cloud and gotten no response. Calling their phone number gets a message saying that their voice mailbox is full. I don't know what to do now to get my money.

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  • Bo
    Bob Sep 22, 2008

    I too have been waiting. Got an email that my order was sent on 8/28 and then nothing. Has anyone received an response from them?

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  • Pa
    Patrick Sep 23, 2008

    Exactly the same thing here. This happened to me 5yrs ago with a business out of Ok. & yes it was the ATF again. We never recovered ANY money and they eventualy went out of business. Definately call your bank immediately & Good Luck!

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  • Bo
    bobthebuilder1234 Sep 24, 2008

    I had converted from mail order via check to automated month ACH orders just before they were shut down. I'm out $138, and no answers. So I placed an ACH block with them at my bank (another $25), and since it was an 'authorized' withdrawal', my bank can't do anything to get funds back. I won't ever authorize ACH withdrawals again!!!

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  • Br
    Brian Sep 25, 2008

    Same thing happen to me. I'm out $73.81. Does anyone have any info about contacting the ATF or whomever to recover our money?

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  • Br
    Brian Sep 25, 2008

    I emailed the following letter to the ATF at [email protected]

    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
    99 New York Ave. NE
    Mail Stop 5S144
    Washington, DC 20226

    Dear ATF,

    I am or was a customer of ‘Silver Cloud Smoke Shop’ located at P.O. Box 7130, Albuquerque, NM 87194. I recently made an online order with Silver Cloud for cigarettes and have not received my order in over 3 weeks. I have tried to call and email Silver Cloud with no response.

    I became suspicious and did an online search for complaints against Silver Cloud and discovered warrants were served against the company in August 2009 for tax problems. I am not interested in details of Silver Cloud’s investigation however, I would like to know how I can recover my payment of $73.81 for cigarettes I never received? Any instructions you can provide me would be greatly appreciated.

    It might also be nice for the ATF to pull down Silver Cloud’s website to thwart further orders and obtain their email database so other customers can be contacted.

    I have paperwork to verify and back up my order.


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  • Br
    Brian Sep 25, 2008

    That email didn't work. I'm doing follow up to get my money back.

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  • Mo
    Mona Morin Sep 26, 2008

    I have a automatic withdrawal for $67.67 taken from my checking account every two weeks. I have not recieved any merchandise from these people since Aug. 11th. I have sent e-mails numerous times but have yet to recieve any answers.

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  • Br
    Brian Sep 26, 2008

    OK, my bad. The above email to the ATF doesn't work anymore (no surprise). I managed to locate a number to the New Mexico ATF field office. I to Jake Gonzales (505) 346-6914. He said the agent handling the investigation is Tim King. Mr. King is out of state on assignment for approximately 2 weeks and will return calls about Silver Cloud when he returns.

    During my converstation with Mr. Gonzales he said that the ATF executed warrants on Aug. 26th, 2008. They siezed computers and records. The computers were returned within a couple days and Silver Cloud is allowed to return to business. Although Silver Cloud was able to return to business they weren't allowed to return to normal business by way of selling cigarettes at the prices they were before.

    In essence, Silver Cloud was buying cigarettes at wholesale Indian costs and re-selling them to the U.S. public at a profit without including state or federal taxes. It is acceptable to sell the cigarettes on the reservation and to other indians tax exempt but not to the general public (you and I). Additionally, Silver Cloud and other tribe sales are supposed to report these sales to your state so they can hit you up for additional taxes. Uncle Sam never ceases to stick his finger in your butt to see what he can extract.

    Gonzales couldn't comment on details of the investigation but did say the ATF can't really do anything about our complaints because the company hasn't been siezed or shut down by them. The company is allowed to be open and operate. The process is now a consumer complaint. So perhaps the New Mexico Attorney General is the next route. The question is, how far are you willing to go to get your money back? For me it's too much trouble and I'll just write it off.

    Some of you may be wondering how the ATF got involved and how this happens. More than likely this was a complaint generated by other retailers whose business suffers because they didn't have the same advantage as the tribes. The ATF has a lot of things to do and cigarette sales probably weren't on the top of their "To Do" list.

    In a nut shell there probably isn't much we can do. You can call Jake Gonzales at (505) 346-6914 and ask him to leave a message for Agent Tim King to call you back. They won't be able to offer any help but they do want to talk to customers. Makes me wonder why? Do they want our personal info so they can send us a tax bill? Will they supeona us to testify? Nto sure I want to get in bed with the ATF over $70. We can take consumer action but again not sure what can be done. You could contact a local news station adn maybe they could do and expose' on Silver Cloud? it wouldn't get our money back but it would expose the company on TV for shady practices.

    There you have it. Hope it helps.

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  • Li
    Linda Sep 26, 2008

    I made an order for $107.24. Was shipped 9/18/08 and still have not received order??? They do not answer my emails, and their phone's mailbox is full? This is bad business, and I want my order or my money back.

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  • Ca
    Carol Sep 29, 2008

    Sept.29, 2008
    I have a standing order with Silver Cloud on monthly
    bases.On Sept.9th2008
    I got arenewal info. sheet, on Sept. 12th, 2008 I got
    e-mail from them stating that my order has been
    processed and was being shipped that day. As of this date I still have not received my order. I have e-mailed them and called at differenttimes but mail-
    box is always full. I am out $189.41 and cigarettes
    still are not here, nor any answers from them.

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  • Br
    Brian Oct 01, 2008


    Silver Cloud is still trying to charge people that have recurring e-check payments. They tried to charge my account over $200 today and still haven't sent me product from my last order. Make sure your bank is aware of the situation or they will drain your account.

    My banker said they tried to make the charge under a different name "American Indian"

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  • Mc
    MConnie Oct 02, 2008

    I too am a victime of Silver Cloud. However, if anybody has the automatic withdrawal through their savings and checking accounts---act fast.
    Today I noticed they have had triple withdrawals for the last three days out of my checking account. I immediatly contacted my bank and they will stop the triple withdrawal for today but for the others they told me they had to investigate them. I guess I have to fill out a form and then they contact "them". When and if I ever get my money back will have to be determined. What I don't undertand is that if the AFT took their computers and froze accounts, how the heck are they still able to get money out of my account?

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  • Br
    Brian Oct 03, 2008

    This is a follow up to my 2 previous posts.

    The owner of Silver Cloud is Mr. Paul Rainbird. Mr. Rainbird is the 1st Lt. Gov. of the
    Route 5, Box 315-A
    Santa Fe, NM 87506
    Phone (505) 455-2273
    Fax (505) 455-7351
    1st Lt. Gov. Paul Rainbird

    I have filed complaints with the New Mexico Attorney General, IC3, and the FTC.

    I also found this additional contact information regarding the registration on his website.
    Paul Rainbird Email: [email protected]
    American Indian Cigco
    Rt. 1 Box 10-G
    Nambe Pueblo, NM 87506
    Phone: (505) 690-8334

    Mr. Rainbird's attorney is Peter Schoenburg at

    Silver Cloud has tried to access my checking account for over $500 in the last 2 days. My original order was only for $73.81. I suggest you ask your bank to block anything from Silver Cloud and American Indian Cigco.

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  • Ka
    Kathy Oct 03, 2008

    I also ordered cigarettes from Silver Cloud on August 25, 2008. They took $48.77 out of my checking account on August 25, 2008 and to date I still have not received the cigarettes that I was told had been shipped! I have sent several e-mails with no response and have also tried calling only to have their answering machine state that the mailbox is full!
    I am filing a complaint with the States Attorney General's Office and am also inquiring as to the possibility of a class action suit against these people. Anyone interested?

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  • Li
    Lisa B Oct 03, 2008

    Hi All,

    Thanks for all your efforts, you've really helped so much..i have been dumbfounded as i've never had a problem with them before. and of course, just recently starting automatic monthly..damn! never do that again.

    i'm lucky i suppose, only out 42 bucks, i feel for you guys. I feel for the company, being finked out like that..cause some jerkoff isn't getting his cut. BUT...don't like the sound of this shady stuff..charging bank acct's etc. after we've been such loyal customers..not cool.

    I just dealt with internet phishing, 3 companies got a hold of my debit card #, and again, luckily, I'm only out about 40 bucks there. who knows...maybe silvercloud has something to do with that as well...check your bank every day!!!

    I suggest we bombard Mr. Rainbird/his lawyer with phonecalls and emails, even letters til we at least get a response.

    If i hear anything i will come back on this board and let you know...and thanks again.

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  • Li
    Lisa B Oct 04, 2008

    it seems the feds took all the cigarettes... don't think they gave them back. it would be nice if silver cloud would at least put something up on the site. anyhow, here is a link for you;

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  • Br
    Brian Oct 04, 2008

    Thanks Lisa,

    Good luck to you in your efforts. I'm going to beathe down this guys neck until I'm satisfied. I may not get my money back but I want to be sure he is uncomfortable.

    And I agree, at the very least, they should shut down of post something on the website and notify existing customers. Currently, they are charging the recurring accounts and the website is still very much open for business.

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  • Da
    DARYL Oct 05, 2008

    Me too. Automatic order for $326.00 "shipped" on 9/9/08...thanks for all the info in previous emails...will pursue all leads...
    thanks again.

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  • Na
    na Oct 06, 2008

    They have repeatedly charges my bank for the last 2 days over and over without me even placing an order please watch out. im out 1700 dollars in 2 days

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  • Ap
    April Barber Oct 07, 2008

    try going to I have dealt with them a number of times. They have pretty good customer service AND you DO receive the products that you PAID FOR.

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  • Na
    Natasha Oct 08, 2008

    I have been trying their website for the last 2 weeks and it seems like they went out of business because you can't order anything. There's still a price list but no online order forms. I just googled them to see if there was any update as to what happened (hence how I found your comment) and the only other thing I found was www dot native-tobacco dot com which was the second result when I searched for scss. It looks exactly like their site, and they have the drop-box to order present at least, but however there is still no option to actually purchase because beyond brand names there is no product (on the left-hand navigation there are actually links to other native american/duty free shops which tells me they're trying to re-direct clientele without actually saying so). If you still haven't received your order I would definitely consider contacting your bank about this and try to get reimbursed because it does not look good.

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  • Je
    Jeff T Oct 08, 2008


    Silver Clouds raid apparently did not seize an off site auto-debit system because I just got dinged 4 times in the past 2 days in the amount they used to charge for my smokes. Unless you have a "BLOCK" arranged with your bank to protect your money, Silver Cloud is now on a rampage to get your money as fast as they can. And even worse, you'll never see the smokes. Contact your bank immediatly, and close the account. My monthly debit originally was $171.15 X 4 = $684.60 in just two days. I got it back. Question is...will you???

    Silver Cloud can burn in hell!!!


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  • Be
    Beth Oct 08, 2008

    Same thing happened to me. They withdrew my original amount 4 times and then I put a block on my account, but they managed to take it under a different company code and withdrew another 3 payments to the tune of over $970. I am working with my bank to recover the money. Also called the owner, Paul Rainbird at 505-455-2273 and left a message about his company extorting money from former customers. Stay tuned.

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  • Tr
    tracy Oct 09, 2008

    Even after I sent e-mails to stop, tried to call, etc., the last 3 days they have tried repeatedly to take money out of my account, and not only once, 6 times in 1 day. This is ridiculous. The ACH stop only lasts 6 months, then what, I have to do another one. THEY NEED TO STOP!!!

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  • Ki
    Kimberly Oct 09, 2008

    Tracy--I had the exact same problem. I got the ACH stop, then eventually got a "balance hold" which in effect freezes the account so they can't take anything else. I have the claims department researching the $1, 000.08 they took before the stop was in effect, but as soon as that's settled, I'm closing my checking account. How scary!!!

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  • Ge
    George Oct 09, 2008

    I sent an order on Sep 15, 2008--todate I have NOT received an acknowledgement, they don't answer either the phone or emails. Recently, emails are returned as "undeliverable"
    I'm wondering if they still in business

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  • Sh
    Sharron Young Oct 12, 2008

    Briam did they take out multiple withdrawls in the last week or so. There must be somewhere to report this type of crime that can stop the AFT of money. In all my searching, I have not found a central place for victims to sign up. I find a few here and a few there. I think that all the victims need to band together.

    I did call 2 TV stations in Albuquerque and report it as a breaking crime. I also called KVOA in Tucson Az and ask them to check into this.

    Anyone have any ideas feel free to contact me by email. Put Silver Cloud or something similar in the subject so it doesn't go to spam

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  • Na
    Nancy Reed Oct 14, 2008

    This company has taken out $83.01 out of my checking account, 16 times in 4 days. 15 unauthorized !!! I have tried to call them several times, and can't get anyone to answer the phone. The voicemail box is full also!!!

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  • Fr
    Frances Oct 15, 2008

    Same thing here. I found out about the ATF; got in touch with the USPS and they told me to file a dispute with my bank for reversal of funds. I had already tried that and they wouldn't do it, but the USPS said they have to file a dispute on my behalf, so I called my bank and told them what the PO had said and they still would not file it. They also told me that there is no way I can stop SCSS from getting money from my account again even if I don't authorize it. How can that be? I was shocked to find this out. They did make some calls while I was there and 2 different people that they spoke to said that the money out of my account went to PayPal and that SCSS's bank was Wells Fargo. I have tried to get help from PayPal, but so far no luck, so I went to their site and filed a request funds and even though they didn't show SCSS (or a version of that), they filed the request, but nothing from that. My 60 days will be up 10/26/08; after that it will be too late to do anything.

    I was wondering if we can file a fraud complaint with the USPS since our orders were never mailed. Does anyone know?

    Does anyone have anymore ideas about what we can do? I will get in touch with the Attorney General and other mentioned parties in some of the comments, so to all, I appreciate that much.

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  • Na
    Nanci Anderson Oct 17, 2008

    Silver Cloud Smoke Shop took my monthly charge of $133.81 out of my account in september and sent me nothing. I complained to the Better Business Bureau in NM. I called them and sent email. No answer to my email and their phone mail box is full so I couldn't leave a message.

    They took the same monthly charge out of my account three times today. Three times!!! My bank is recovering my funds due to their attempt to defraud.

    Go to your Bank. They can help!!!

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  • Cm
    cmc Oct 25, 2008

    My checking account has been charged ~ $1400.00 in repeat ACH deductions. Sometimes, 5 charges in one day for about $80.00/charge. This happened over the course of 4 days starting 10/6, with the last three charges made on 10/10. I have filed a dispute with my bank and will hopefully recover these funds.

    SCSS voice mail is full as many of you have already reported. The situation stinks and I believe the ATF should have taken measures to prevent theft from peoples checking accounts, instead of simple seizure without accountability to consumers.

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  • Gr
    Grace Oct 28, 2008

    I don't have any idea what is going on with Silver Smoke Shop - I have used them for two years and now it's like they dropped off the planet - they do not answer emails???

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