JoStarr

Ive not met this Carol Keen in person, BUT know that any small dog esp a puppy would be traumatized out the wazoo from a long plane trip (heck, a long plane ride traumatizes ME even), and that you should NEVER EVER withhold water or food from them.. I travel with a service dog on planes (well not since 9/11) and the FIRST thing i do on landing and unloading from the plane is WATER MY Service Dog! and then after she has pottied, I FEED HER!. that stands to reason and COMMON SENSE!

Also know that if any dog throws up BILE or liquid.. its due to NOTHING in the stomach.. and diarrhea would be the same reason.. DUH!

Its also common knowledge that SMALL breed dogs can have sugar crashes.!

It seems by your own admission that this breeder had you read up on *sugar crashes* on the breed she raises. (and apparently you did not comprehend it well enough, or you would Not have had the problems you had)

SO.. why should any breeder refund money for the owner's FAILURE to keep a newly acquired puppy who FLEW a long way in a crate without Water or food?

and everyone knows that airlines do NOT send sick dogs, that IS what the HEALTH CERTIFICATE is For.. And it would fall onto the heads of the VET if the dog was sick NOT the breeder!

and all that have posted here, do so, no doubt, because they KNOW that the BREEDER is in the RIGHT, without them having to be friends.. as i stated first.. I have NOT MET this breeder, but i come to their defense in the light of such hypocrisy of the complainer.

What are you, idiots? You are both so obvious in your attempts to make your friend look good. Whatever. The point is:

KEEN POMERANIANS IS, IN REALITY, A PUPPY MILL!
==================================
OH, so now the juvenile is calling people names!?!?! true hypocrisy! (ie: look in the mirror!)

Puppy mill? since you have not seen this place, how do you know? also Puppy mills do not have AKC credidation. Puppy mills do not train dogs, nor place them as assistance dogs! puppy mills sell dogs to pet store, and never to individuals. the fact that you, an individual bought a puppy. PROVES your statement is false! NOT a PUPPY MILL..

too bad you are such a spoiled brat, and making up all these lies... oh .. and changing your story as you go!.. creative, too bad its all a LIE!

you are missing the point here! I will lay it out really simple so you can follow

1) NO animal can be shipped from MS to Calif without a Health Certificate. its the LAW!

2) Parvo does not incubate within 24 hrs! not possible.

3) Parvo symptoms have to be present for any dog to test positive to Parvo.

http://www.keenpomeranians.com/Contracts.htm re read the contract (found by google search)

http://www.keenpomeranians.com/SugarCrash.html describes the sugar crash your puppy was having.
(found by google search)

http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/mahood/bio/Feeding%20your%20wee%20dog%20and%20thee.doc.

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/hypoglycemia.aspx

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/hypoglycemia-in-dogs/page1.aspx

http://petcare.suite101.com/article.cfm/hypoclycemia__in_dogs_and_cats

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/hypoglycemia-in-dogs.html

quote:
Some toy breeds (such as Chihuahuas, Yorkshire Terriers, Maltese, Toy Poodles and Pomeranian) are prone to hypoglycemia due to a metabolic disorder. If you have a toy breed dog, it is better to feed her 3 small meals a day to avoid hypoglycemia.

Puppies, especially toy breed puppies less than 5 months of age, are predisposed to developing hypoglycemia because they are less able to store and mobilize glucose. Also, toy breed puppies have more brain mass per body weight compared to other breeds and therefore need more glucose for brain function.
In puppies, certain situations can bring on a hypoglycemic attack. For example, when the puppy misses a meal, becomes chilled, or is suffering from exhaustion, or anxiety.

Symptoms of Hypoglycemia in Dogs

Dogs with extremely low blood glucose usually show the following signs:
Lethargy and weakness
Confusion and disorientation
Restlessness and agitation
Muscle incoordination
Nervousness
Trembling
Seizures
In severe cases, the dog may become unconscious and sometimes die.

The severity of the symptoms depends on the level of the blood glucose and how fast the blood glucose level drops. If left untreated, a dog showing mild symptoms of hypoglycemia can deteriorate rapidly. Immediate veterinary treatment is essential - dogs suffering from prolonged hypoglycemia or repeated occurrences of the condition can have permanent damage to their brains.
:end quote

thats just a FEW links showing that hypoglycemia is common in puppies of small and toy breeds.

ya missed the boat on this one.. esp when you failed to bring said documentation (the sugar crash contract) with you to either vet. its obvious they are not familiar with toy breeds.

Did you even bother to inform either DVM that the puppy had just been FLOWN 1500 miles?

Hi Cindy, i see you changed your log on.. since you did, you may not have seen my comments to your other post.. so i will reprint it here.

you are missing the point here! I will lay it out really simple so you can follow

1) NO animal can be shipped from MS to Calif without a Health Certificate. its the LAW!

2) Parvo does not incubate within 24 hrs! not possible.

3) Parvo symptoms have to be present for any dog to test positive to Parvo.

http://www.keenpomeranians.com/Contracts.htm re read the contract (found by google search)

http://www.keenpomeranians.com/SugarCrash.html describes the sugar crash your puppy was having.
(found by google search)

http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/mahood/bio/Feeding%20your%20wee%20dog%20and%20thee.doc.

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/hypoglycemia.aspx

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/hypoglycemia-in-dogs/page1.aspx

http://petcare.suite101.com/article.cfm/hypoclycemia__in_dogs_and_cats

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/hypoglycemia-in-dogs.html

quote:
Some toy breeds (such as Chihuahuas, Yorkshire Terriers, Maltese, Toy Poodles and Pomeranian) are prone to hypoglycemia due to a metabolic disorder. If you have a toy breed dog, it is better to feed her 3 small meals a day to avoid hypoglycemia.

Puppies, especially toy breed puppies less than 5 months of age, are predisposed to developing hypoglycemia because they are less able to store and mobilize glucose. Also, toy breed puppies have more brain mass per body weight compared to other breeds and therefore need more glucose for brain function.
In puppies, certain situations can bring on a hypoglycemic attack. For example, when the puppy misses a meal, becomes chilled, or is suffering from exhaustion, or anxiety.

Symptoms of Hypoglycemia in Dogs

Dogs with extremely low blood glucose usually show the following signs:
Lethargy and weakness
Confusion and disorientation
Restlessness and agitation
Muscle incoordination
Nervousness
Trembling
Seizures
In severe cases, the dog may become unconscious and sometimes die.

The severity of the symptoms depends on the level of the blood glucose and how fast the blood glucose level drops. If left untreated, a dog showing mild symptoms of hypoglycemia can deteriorate rapidly. Immediate veterinary treatment is essential - dogs suffering from prolonged hypoglycemia or repeated occurrences of the condition can have permanent damage to their brains.
:end quote

thats just a FEW links showing that hypoglycemia is common in puppies of small and toy breeds.

ya missed the boat on this one.. esp when you failed to bring said documentation (the sugar crash contract) with you to either vet. its obvious they are not familiar with toy breeds.

Did you even bother to inform either DVM that the puppy had just been FLOWN 1500 miles?

And you know this HOW?

It does not take a DVM lic to be able to look things up on the internet (thru goggle) and have the reading comprehension to understand what is said.

Oh Right.. you dont have any!

so spell check failed.. BUT.. my reading comprehension is just fine.. so IF you would read the links i provided, you would learn that parvo does not incubate in 24 hrs, and there is no way that any vet would sign a health certificate on an unhealthy dog, just as no airline would fly a dog without a health certificate.

also reread that contract you mentioned that you signed.. you might learn something !

YOU Cindy, are the ONLY reason that Puppy had to suffer.. I been following your comments, and you change your story so much.. How DO YOU keep them ALL Straight?

ya know what they say about liars.. right? after a while they believe them all themselves.. in other words, you are the only one that is *buying* into all this..

so far the breeder has kept the same story, You on the other hand keep adding to yours..

the ONLY SMALL child i see in all this is YOU.. so tell me.. do you also do the tantrum bit too? when you dont get your way, do you lay down on the floor and kick and scream and hold your breath? well next time.. dont inhale!

Lame!

NO ONE tells me what to write anywhere, i am fully capable of formatting my own words!..

Actually, ive done BETTER then buy dogs from Carol Keen, i have helped people who need Service Dogs, get a GREAT one from Carol Keen.. She has awesome lines that work so GREAT for people needing well balanced, steady, dependable SERVICE DOGS!.. not every breeder can boast that part.

Being a Service dog is not for just any dog even in a particular breed, just ask any disabled person..

as to making mistakes? have you READ the reviews on the ONLY VET ER that stated the dog had parvo? thats right ONLY ONE VET.. only ONE place.. the one that talked cindy into giving the dog up.

the first vet, said the dog DID NOT have parvo.. he gave it a vitamin shot and then REFUNDED THE MONEY.. so cindy is NOT out that money..

the other place.. well, the VET that told her that the dog had parvo is NOT LICENSED to PRACTICE at the clinic she was working at.. I KNOW this because I LOOKED IT UP!

are you aware, that its shorter time to FLY from mississippi to california then it is to DRIVE? and that would be one LONG drive for that small of any breed animal.

are you also aware, that the puppy DID HAVE a HEALTH CERTIFICATE? and that airlines REALLY DO ASK FOR THEM? they are ruled by USDA.. and trust me they are STRICT..

cindy only paid $400 for the actual dog, the other was the crate and the airline ticket.. she got her $$ back from the first vet, and she NEVER PAID the second vet..

She also BROKE THE CONTRACT! so are you then saying that people that break contracts should still be protected by them?

as to the parvo versus being ill, the test was NOT done in cindy's presence, heck I would not believe any dr that had to take the test OUT OF MY SIGHT for it to work .. and there are NO CLINICAL SIGNS for PARVO in the early stages.. so YEAH.. the vet can make mistakes.. they are after all human..

as to KNOWING all this.? well lets just say i wont be giving out my vet lic # to the public.. thats sort of against the rules!>

I tried to upload the copy of the health certificate, but this place wont let it show up.. so this place? is hindering the actual solving of the complaint. its all in the proof of the documents.. so if you do not trust getting them from Carol Keen.. then ask me.

I notice that you have not mentioned your vets name nor place of business, so it is very hard to prove that there actually IS a vet involved in this disagreement. (using that term lightly)

I also would think, that any monies paid to any vet for any reason, would NOT pertain in the same way as paying a breeder for breeding papers on a puppy. the two are not interchangeable.

Also considering that you have had prior conversations with the nutcase in california, this whole thing, just seems more like a RUSE on your part to further slam a breeder.

Also, as per most contracts, did you take the puppy to your vet within the 48 hrs of pickup? if not, then anything the puppy caught was from your own environment. Not something that could be blamed on the breeder.

I guess your memory is not that good anymore.. this url Keen Pomeranians — Carol Keen and this quote from you.

" I did notice that this was the only complaint on this web site, for one thing. For another, I have met Carol on a different type of situation. She had a 10 year old former breeder that she was seeking a home for. Scuddles was a wonderful dog and we loved her for 2 months before she passed away. When we received the dog from Carol, she told me very clearly, that if at any time we were unable to give her a home, we could call Carol and Carol would take her back. BTW, the dog was given to us. Carol did not try to sell her.

We are in the process of purchasing, hopefuly, another dog from Carol."

you mentioned the same dog by NAME!.

http://www.thunderingpyrs.com/Contracts.htm is url for the contract. which first states in the first paragraph ... "I cannot guarantee against any external or internal parasites, virus, bacteria or allergy once the puppy has left my care. "

next paragraph states ..."The buyer has a health guarantee of 2 business days (48 hours) from the time of the transfer of the animal in which to have the animal checked by a licensed veterinarian. If the veterinarian finds anything seriously genetically wrong with the animal it will be exchanged for another animal..."

so there is only 48 hrs.. usually the way contracts and the LAW goes, if two time frames are stated, then it goes by the one that is SHORTEST... this would be 48 hours)

you also state above, that you picked up the dog on Dec 22, and that you were *busy* the next day Dec 23.. and i know for fact, that vets and business were OPEN on dec 24th (which would have been the 48 hrs per the contract) so you could have taken the pup to the vet on either of these days.. Dec 23 (when you state you were busy) and Dec 24th (half day but within the contract time stated) IF indeed the puppy was showing signs of being ill.

so waiting till Dec 28th is NOT within the contract, as stated. your requesting a refund is outside of the contract stipulations.

Also, read up on Parvo, it can be contracted from just walking on the grass that a dog that either has the virus or is a carrier for the virus.. OR that someone else walking thru a contaminated area, can EASILY transport it and further contaminate other places.. so letting a puppy under the age of 3 months walk on public or on possibly contaminated ground is putting your puppy at risk.

also. read up on the parvo shot.. they take a few days after inoculation for the vaccine to build up in the animals system and provide immunity to the virus or bacterial they are supposed to be protecting the dog..

most places, including vets will tell you that allowing any puppy to interact with other dogs before such time as the vaccine has had TIME to build up the immunity within the newly vaccinated animal is putting the animal AT RISK!

finally.. have you actually surfed the net and looked for other pyrs with breeding rights? those dogs START at $2000 and go UP in price.. yet you want breeding rights for a puppy that you are not even up to date on knowing HOW to take care of it..

much less understanding that once a puppy has been treated for parvo, that it is no longer advisable to breed said animal.. its NOT the virus that does the DNA damage but the treatment.. the only known antibiotics that can eradicate parvo, are so strong and damaging to the animal its administered to, that dna is altered, as well as the possibility of causing damage to organs as well.

actually, im rather amused at the fact that you did not even know that the pup you first received was a not a male..

quote from your complaint..
"The vet said the dog was not a male. We hadn't looked to confirm gender due to the size of the dog and the dog was very subdued and shy. "

and yet you want breeding rights? so was the whole purpose behind your wanting a dog. was to become a backyard breeder?

I salute any breeder of dogs that does NOT support such genetically altered persona in their desire to become a byb.. (back yard breeder) as it is clearly the almighty dollar that drives such individuals to want to breed, and certainly not knowledge OF the breed, much less the health and Welfare of said dogs.. NOR the genetic knowledge that goes into knowing which dogs to breed TO!

You just proved that point in SPADES...

Cindy, same can be said about buyers.. more research is needed when finding buyers of puppies.. those that are weak, and unable to be logical, and are easily swayed by vets with $$$ for eyes, are NOT RESPONSIBLE enough humans to care for dogs of any age.

IF one can not do the research into How to correctly take care of any animal, (on the internet there are thousands of places that give that much needed information), then that person should NOT be Allowed to purchase an animal. Too bad there is not some registry that keeps track of such irresponsible owners, so that other Breeders are not burned as Keen Pomeranians has been burned by this totally reprehensible person, one Cindy Aguilar!

um sorry, wrong again Cindy.. I'm not carol keen.. AND im actually much older then she is... i live in the new england area as well. and I'm not Carol's lap dog.. (Ive actually never met the lady Carol Keen in person!)

IT DOES CONCERN ME.. because my next service dog, a great pyr again, WILL be gotten from this woman and her kennel and her line of Pyrs.

so, by legal terms, i DO have a 'vested interest' in what is said here!

you just have a 'witch hunt' to prolong, but your 'hunt' would be much less time consuming if you merely looked in the MIRROR, the next time you want to 'Burn' someone.. !

AND i know that all the dogs from Keen's Kennel are Great service dogs, as i have helped Place 3 so far. i know, it does not sound like many.. but a lot of training goes into these service dogs, so there is a lot of time spent at Carol's during that training.. the dogs live there, she cares for them, they are healthy when they arrive, healthy when they go to their new team members.

but you have helped somewhat in all this.. she has learned how to screen her buyers for *nut jobs* and how to best keep her dogs safe.. but trust me that is the ONLY good thing you have contributed!

the difference here is that i totally understand that that ANY dog, regardless of age / breed / size that travels any length of distance (not to mention the large distance the small young puppy to get to your location) would be stressed, and need to be kept quiet (no visitors) for a few days.. till they have had time to rest up and relax.. and to get used to the changes in the taste of water (not to mention the difference in the chemicals used to purify the water you drink) the different pollutants in the air (one cant escape that unless they live in a bubble) and the change in dog food. If the new owner does NOT respect those changes to the young dogs environment, then they have to realize that responses such as vomit / diarrhea are going to happen.

really scares me, that you did not realize that.. and the poor dog suffered from your ill treatment and lack of respect for the animal.

and IF one has not noticed here, the actual SCAM of vets *finding* parvo in dogs where there is none.. regardless of what the *mfg* wants to say about their products, the snap test is ONLY really designed to show a dogs reaction to SOME infection. by the rise in antibodies.. but after recieving a LIVE VACCINE preserved in mercury. for parvo.. how else? is the dog to develop the ability to be immune to parvo if NOT to develope *antibodies*.. its like a DUH! moment here.

Im really sorry you got caught up in the SCAM by vets that find Parvo in any dog that has vomited in the past..

im especially sorry for the puppy.. he was the TRUE VICTIM here..