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Mink RagdollsMink Ragdolls are outcrosses of RagaMuffins

C Review updated:

This Cattery currently displays outdated TICA Ragdoll Pedigrees on their Website.Irene has been advised that this is confusing the General Public into believing her Mink Ragdolls have been an established and accepted part of the Ragdoll Breed since the very inception of the Breed. This is not true. Mink and Sepia Ragdolls were derived from outcrosses to the RagaMuffin Breed. Irene needs to update her current website and the pedigrees she has posted.She needs to clearly state that the Sepia gene was introduced by outcrossing Ragdolls to the more popular RagaMuffin Breed. Mink Ragdolls are currently Ragdoll Breed Variants and are not inclusive to any written Ragdoll Breed Standard. I've included a website which clearly defines how Mink Ragdoll occured

http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm

Responses

  • Do
    dovesinflight Jan 14, 2018
    This comment was posted by
    a verified customer
    Verified customer

    I just purchased a seal point mink ragdoll and it is a beautiful cat. At some point I might want to show my cat. I have raised and exhibited pigeons for years (Yes there are Pigeon shows and hundreds of breeds of pigeons} and I do know that most breeders of fancy pigeons outcross to help get specific color, type and temperament. I bred Old Dutch Capuchines and many breeders crossed the ODC to Modenas to improve type. After many generations you had Old Dutch Capuchines with better type. My point is that the Ragdoll is still a young breed as far as cats go and there is most likely going to be some past crossbreeding to get specific type and color.
    JMO

    -2 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Mar 18, 2013

    "I have had descendants of my cats shown and reach grand Championship status in several associations."

    Colorpointed descendants of your Cats have been shown & reached Championship status in several associations, NOT SOLIDS. NOT MINKS. NOT SEPIA.

    "She continued to sell the pointed but also had the solids and minks, too, and called them and registered them in her registry as Ragdoll cats."

    She called them (Solids & Minks) MANY different Breed names such as Miracles, Little Americans, Maximillions, Ragdoll Tu's, and even Catenoids BUT Ann Baker always distinguished them separately from her COLORPOINTED "IRCA Ragdolls" Solids, Minks & Sepias were not included in Ann's own written Ragdoll Breed Standard which states the Ragdoll is a Blue-Eyed Colorpointed Breed. Remember Rovena, All the former IRCA Breeds are the Foundation Cats of the RagaMuffin Breed, including those that were reregistered as Ragdolls by David Chambers in UCF and transferred back into TICA six years after I first submitted ACFA pedigrees into TICA on the same cats (RagaMuffins)

    1 Votes
  • Ro
    Rovena Parmley Mar 13, 2013

    This is to the comment that IRCA was never a valid cat association: I never said it was! Cats from IRCA that were registered into TICA for that decade preceding the registration of the Ragamuffin were registered foundation. That means they had one or both parents of unrecognized or unknown registry. In a number of cases, because Ann Baker did have breeding stock registered in NCFA and the fact that a number of breeders also owned and bred their already registered and recognized traditional Ragdolls, were able to show pedigree information on them, even though on the TICA certificate of registration the words "unknown" are typed. This is to the comment that they (the minks & solids) do not live up to the standards and are not actively bred for by quality breeders: Any Ragdoll cat, irrespective of coat and eye color should be actively bred to the standard! Blue eye color and point color isn't the be all and end all of the standard, What happened to size? coat texture? head type? etc. Anyone can breed a blue-eyed pointed fluffy cat and say it's a Ragdoll then. On Ann Baker's literature (and for that matter, at least the early traditional breeders) stated that the first thing the Ragdoll is bred for is the personality! Then size, type, pattern, and lastly, color. I say again, Just because a group of breeders broke early from Ann Baker and promoted the Ragdoll in the registries using the breed name that Ann Baker coined and her 1st written standard, does not mean that Ann Baker could not, should not, take the cats she had left and breed them, add something in, promote them, sell them. She continued to sell the pointed but also had the solids and minks, too, and called them and registered them in her registry as Ragdoll cats. TICA doesn't work the same as other cat associations. And I am not trying to "destroy" the breed. I've been breeding Ragdolls for 30 years now in both pointed and solid colors and haven't seen it destroyed yet. Though because of various reasons I haven't been able to show, I have had descendants of my cats shown and reach grand Championship status in several associations.

    -2 Votes
  • Ra
    rascaljade Dec 17, 2012

    Ragdolls are a pointed cat, with blue eyes, that is born white, and it's colour develops slowly over time.
    A mink, sepia or solid "ragdoll" is NOT a pointed cat, with blue eyes, that is born white, and it's colour develops slowly over time.
    They are only 'rare' because they do not live up to standards, and are not actively bred for by quality breeders. If you want these cats, start your own breed. Stop trying to destroy the ragdoll.

    3 Votes
  • Ph
    Pheldom Jan 13, 2019
    This comment was posted by
    a verified customer
    Verified customer

    @rascaljade You are crazy. If the DNA test show full blooded ragdoll and you put traditional with any other ragdoll and you get both that test our red, it's a Ragdoll. Those recessive genes are still in the breed and can show up at any time. Now days minks, Sepias and solids are produced with the blue eyes. Also, the mink and the sepia are a pointed coat cat. It's clearly visible. What I've discovered is that the mink, sepia and solids are often time more appealing to the eye. It's not all a marketing ploy. People like what they see. Many of the top breeders have them. Quality cats at that.

    2 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Dec 17, 2012

    Rovena,

    Why don't you join us over at The Ragdoll Cat Forums. People are always asking questions about the "Variant Ragdolls'. http://www.ragdollcatguide.com/forum/index.php

    0 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Dec 17, 2012

    "TICA was accepting registrations for around 10 years of the Ann Baker Ragdolls (which included ALL colors) before the Ragamuffin was accepted for registration in ACFA."

    Rovena your statement is naturally completely false! IRCA registration were never directly accepted by TICA from the IRCA since they didn't "share" reciprocity with each other. The IRCA was not and never was a VALID CAT ASSOCIATION. Solid, Mink & Sepia "Ragdolls" registered in TICA are considered 'Variants" of the Ragdoll Breed. They are soley registrable by TICA. You were previously a Member of the TICA Ragdoll Breed Committee so you are also aware of the fact that the Solids, Mink & Sepia "Variant Ragdolls" have been consistently and recently rejected by a Majority Vote of the TICA Ragdoll Breed Section for inclusion within the Breed Standard. P.S. Ann Baker sold IRCA Ragdolls and IRCA Miracle Ragdolls to her Breeders. These "IRCA" registered Breeds" were the Foundation Cats of the RagaMuffin Breed, which is clearly stated in the RagaMuffin Breed Standard. You or anyone else might want to join our conversations about these TICA "Variant Ragdolls" over at The Ragdoll Cat Forums: http://www.ragdollcatguide.com/forum/index.php

    0 Votes
  • Ro
    Rovena Parmley Dec 09, 2012

    Short History lesson: Ann Baker started the Ragdoll breed. She continued to breed her cats for many many years and continued to do so even after a group of breeders bought cats from her and took the name of her breed and her description of the breed to the various cat associations and made her breed their breed. Ann Baker's original standard for show is for the cat that had the mitted pattern only and only in 2 pointed colors. The others promoted the breed in 3 color patterns and 4 colors. Many of these breeders claimed that the cat breed came from 3 breeds, persian, birman, & burmese. Ann Baker's claim was from her purebred persian to random breed presian look alke, angora look alike, birman look alike, and burmese look alike. Ann Baker re-introduced the look alikes back into her breeding program and registered the non- pointed as experimental persian in NCFA. NCFA is now defunct and work to attain these certificates has been done but it is assumed they have all been destroyed. Ann Baker did not know color genetics and did not know all the ins and outs of breeding for certain colors and patterns. The solid, minks, and sepias lines were reincorporated into the breed shortly after the first Ragdolls were being registered with the associations because those breeders had Ann Baker;s cats banned from being registered. TICA is a different type of registry. TICA is based on "first you build the barn and then paint it" idea. TICA was accepting registrations for around 10 years of the Ann Baker Ragdolls (which included ALL colors) before the Ragamuffin was accepted for registration in ACFA. TICA did not have to all of a sudden follow ACFA's or the Ragamuffins rules for registering cats. Ann Baker sold RAGDOLL cats to her breeders, not Ragamuffins. A registered Ragdoll bred to an ACFA Ragamuffin would be considered a Ragdoll bred to a cat of an "unknown" breed and the 1st generation would be called Ragdoll because Ragamuffins at that time were NOT a recognized breed in TICA. Just because TICA decades later then accepts Ragamuffins as an experimental breed does not make all those generations of previously registered Ragdolls turn automatically into Ragamuffins.
    Show Quality Price. Show quality price is whatever the breeder feels another would be willing to pay for a particular cat of any particular line. Cats with Championship behind their names do not automatically produce show quality kittens and then there are many cases of not so show quality cats being bred together and produce show quality kittens. Also, many buyers of the pets don't even have a clue as to how much money goes into breeding for good quality kittens. How many times I have heard "I only want a pet, hard times, I only want to pay no more than $300 or $400 for a pet kitten, I'm not going to breed it". Well, it can cost that much and more for 1 trip to the vet to get the kitten it's check-up, it's worming, it's shots. Then there is the want to know if the parents have been tested for HCM even if all the grandparents have been and you can show the reports. Cost around $60. Then there is the customer who wants a certified pedigree. Cost of up to $50 depending upon no. of generations. Food, litter, etd. If the breeder does their own shots you can bet you get a customer who wails about the possibility of it not getting the right care before selling so a breeder has got to have a vet back up. I could go on.

    0 Votes
  • Dm
    D.M.D. Nov 07, 2012

    As a buyer all of this is just too confusing. I feel like I'm getting scammed. Why should we pay the high dollar for a Mink, Solid, or Sepia as a "rare". When they are not recognized by the TICA? I looked it up myself. If the cat doesn't come from a "show quality" breeder, then why are we expected to pay even more than a "show quality cat"? All we have is their word that the cat is a true Ragdoll. Just because someone says they are cute, doesn't mean we have to pay show quality prices...or more in some cases. ??? At least if a person "shows" their animals you know they have thier reputation, in the show world, on the line.
    Please, everyone like me...do your research! Go to the TCIA website. They list thier registered breeders in your area. http://www.tica.org/search/search.php?zoom_query=ENCHANTEDCATS&zoom_per_page=10&zoom_and=0&zoom_sort=0

    1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Sep 03, 2012

    I've attached a picture of my beautiful Blue Mink RagaMuffin who is registered in CFA and ACFA. I'll be showing him in 2013

    Comments

    0 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Sep 03, 2012

    Dear Orpheous,
    Ann Baker never included "Solid" colors in the Ragdoll Breed or the Ragdoll Breed Standard. She rejected all Solids as Ragdolls and registered them as Experimental Persians and were placed into Persian Breeding Programs. You do not know the Ragdoll Breed history! All current Mink Ragdolls were derived from outcrosses to RagaMuffins, including the ones Irene exported to Australia with TICA Pedigrees that were accepted by TFA. LOL!!

    http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm

    Curt Gehm
    Liebling Cats

    0 Votes
  • Or
    Orpheous Aug 31, 2012

    By certain standards I am a new breeder (8 years). But I have been studying the Ragdoll and will continue to learn and keep an open mind. I myself with a few other reputable Breeders here in Australia are trying to get the "Non Traditional Ragdoll" accepted here to Championship Status. We're already able to register our Solid and Mink RAGDOLLS as yet we haven't got any Sepia's. One breeder in particular has spent a lot of time researching the Dark Side and spent a lot of money importing a Solid Ragdoll as we want to keep the Ragdoll as pure as possible. We didn't want to outcross to other breeds to create the Solid Ragdoll here in Australia and call it another name and why should we when they HAVE been there from the beginning. Everybody has a right to their own opinion and I respect that but in saying that, I expect the same in return. It looks like this topic will always be controversy. The thing is we all want whats right for the cat and the breed (well most of us do). Look at the facts that have been laid out before us in black and white the original Ragdolls did have Solids. The ragdoll people split into two camps one promoted the point side of the Ragdoll and they forged ahead with that and I congratulate them. But don't forget the other side, the Dark Side and also don't forget, Seeing you all like to say quotes well here in Australia we have one too its called the Quiet Achiever.
    I have attached my beautiful Blue Mink Ragdoll who is TFA registered here in Australia. Look out next year when we submit our proposal to the ACF.

    Comments

    -1 Votes
  • Bi
    Billie Mar 24, 2012

    Curt Gehm is such a nutcase, just like Candice Prowting from Eiserblew Ragdolls lokated in UK.

    -1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Mar 30, 2011

    "It appears rather unprofessional of you to try so hard to spread dirt about other breeders; only insecure people use the means of slander to try to hurt their competition. Here's a hint, it doesn't give you more credibility and makes you sound excessively stubborn, repetitive, hateful and jealous."

    I think it's extremely unprofessional of Ragdoll Breeders like yourself to pawn off and sell Mink Ragdolls for thousands of dollars knowing your Ragdoll Breed Variants do not trace to the Ragdoll Breed Foundation Cats.All of you are advertising these Ragdoll Variants as originals. I love Mink RagaMuffins especially mine that added the Sepia Gene to the current Mink Ragdoll Breed Variants. The sooner Mink Ragdoll Breeders acknowledge Mink Ragdolls were obtained from RagaMuffin outcrosses the sooner these Variant Ragdoll Breeders will possibly obtain some respectability within the Cat Fancy. As Owner of the cats that introduced the Sepia Gene to your Mink Ragdolls I am very dissapointed not one of you know the history of these cats. It's a sad situation that you Breed for profit and not acceptance of the Variants. How many times have you shown your cats?

    http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm

    2 Votes
  • Al
    Allana Mar 26, 2011

    Wow, I just found this thread and I can't believe all this nitpicking. Curt you clearly have way too much time on your hands, and obvious jealousy toward successful breeders and the mink lines in general. What did minks do to you to get you into such a hissy fit so as to pick apart some ancient pedigrees? It appears rather unprofessional of you to try so hard to spread dirt about other breeders; only insecure people use the means of slander to try to hurt their competition. Here's a hint, it doesn't give you more credibility and makes you sound excessively stubborn, repetitive, hateful and jealous.

    Ragdolls are simply amazing no matter how they got here, they're originally a mix of several breeds anyway it's not like they're some pure breed from centuries ago. What makes it a sin if there's an incident of an offshoot breed like the Ragamuffin supposedly included in some Ragdoll lines? Oh my gosh, BIG deal! They're the same cat except for color. I personally think the more color options a breed has the more appealing it is to a wider range of people. I love variety and also think its boring that only the pointed blue-eyed Ragdolls are promoted as the breed standard by the big shots and the show halls. The more rare options and colors there are, the more fun it is to breed.

    I love my Ragdolls to death and would do so regardless of their ancient history. I don't see the point of arguing some cryptic pedigree records. Ragdolls of all colors are popular, and they will continue to be no matter what you say about them Curt. You might just have to deal with it someday. Why don't you focus all your incredible energy into promoting your own breed instead of trying to bring down another, huh? That's an idea for you.

    Today's Ragdolls are registered purebreds. End of story. Even the minks and whatever other colors you traditionalists keep treating like the plague. If the cats could only hear you people arguing, they'd be laughing hysterically at how silly humans are. Got to go, pizza's here..

    -1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Mar 17, 2011

    "Mink Ragdolls" will always be Ragdoll Breed Variants. Mink Ragdolls are RARE simply because most Ragdoll Breeders breed Ragdolls to the Breed Standard which states a Ragdoll is Colorpointed cat. Mink Ragdolls are not Colorpointed and therefore "Mink Ragdoll Breeders "are breeding cats away from the Ragdoll Breed Standard. Mink RagaMuffins were recently advanced into championship status in CFA in 2011. ;)

    3 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Mar 17, 2011

    Obviously TICA changed the pedigree records because they were proven to be incorect.

    http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm

    2 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Dec 08, 2010

    Martin98


    The reason they are rare is simply because most reputable knowleadgeble Ragdoll Breeders don't breed Minks or Solids because they know the Breed Standard requires Ragdolls to be Colorpointed Cats

    1 Votes
  • Ma
    Martin98 Sep 29, 2010

    Nobody should go around changing pedigrees unles ABSOLUTLY known to be incorrect. This is messing up everything.

    1 Votes
  • Ma
    Martin98 Sep 29, 2010

    MR CURT must feel very threatened about these mink ragdolls. Why would anyone keep trying to convince others not to purcahse mink ragdolls and point out pedigrees that may not even be correct. Any breeder can write anything down and send it in to a cat regsitery like TICA or CFA. Even if they were out crossed to ragamuffin cats to get there color they are EXCEPTABLE and are called mink ragdolls and are pedigree cats. They are rare because not many people own them or hear of them but people love them and want them. After all most breeds are man made anyway and I belive the crossing to mink helps widen the gene pool to weed out health defects if one brings in healthy cats.

    -1 Votes
  • Li
    Linda904 Sep 26, 2010

    DOES IT REALLY MATTER WHERE MINK CAME FROM?? Grow up Curt people love these colors and we are aloud to breed them as PEDIGREE ragdolls. There is no difference in traits or personality. From what I learned from over 60 breeders is that this mink color was created in the begining with in the ragdoll breed. The breeder who made them did not want the color anymore and just bred pointed. The mink was then a part of the ragamuffin breed. So without a ragdoll there would not even be a ragamuffin LOL stupid so there for no minks !!!

    -1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jul 13, 2010

    http://pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=238797&g=4&p=rag

    Irene,

    Seems PAWPEDS has recently made changes to their Ragdoll Database and currently indicate "Mink Variant Ragdolls" were derived from RagaMuffin Outcrosses. ;)


    Curt Gehm
    Liebling Cats

    -2 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jul 05, 2010

    If Ragdoll Breeders want the Minks and Solids accepted then let them get out and Show them in the TICA New Color Divisions.The Solid and especially the Mink Ragdoll Breeders also need to stop misleading people into believing their Variants are traceable the Original Ragdoll Breed Foundation Cats. The Minks are not traceable to BUCKWHEAT! :)

    1 Votes
  • Ja
    Jackie.S. Jul 05, 2010
    This comment was posted by
    a verified customer
    Verified customer

    All pure bred cat breeds have to start somewhere. When you say Mink Ragdolls are an outcross of ragamuffins; Well aren't Ragdolls outcrosses of persians and domestics and god knows what else? I know you have to draw the line somewhere when making breed standards, but I think Minks, Sepias, and Solids should definitely be included. I am not a breeder so I am not trying to advocate my breeding regime. I am just a lover of the breed and think Minks make a beautiful variation to the ragdoll breed. The breed would be boring if it was all one noted traditional color points. I say as long as they have the same standard colorings: seal, blue, flame, lilac, solid, chocolate and the same markings: bi-color, blaze, lynx ect.. Both mink and white should be accepted as a registered Ragdoll. Look at other cats, they have variety. The bengal has the traditional brown colouring and the snow version.

    2 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 25, 2010

    Noticed your home made Pedigrees are not signed by you. Care to explain this to people?


    I certify that this pedigree is true and complete
    to the best of my knowledge
    _____________________________________ Date:____________

    0 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 24, 2010

    Irene, So according to your Website you feel you are preserving and saving something right? What Pedigree Falsifications? What a Legacy!

    1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 24, 2010

    Irene please notice in your quote and in the intervue given to Cat Fancy Magazine that the Breed Name "RagaMuffin" was given to these mixed bred cats by me because they came from " the endearing little urchin cats of Riverside", not Ragdolls :) You know just as well as I do that the Cat Fancy and all the Cat Associations as as a whole did not/would not consider or recognize Ann Baker's later day IRCA Cats to be of any particular Breed.Even Ann distinguished these IRCA cats as different so why are you misleadingly and continually refering to them as Ragdolls. :) The fact remains you bought your Mink colored cats from DallasRags and Marla and Billie Knapp knowing TICA registered RagaMuffins had Ragdoll pedigrees hung on them by David Chambers.His falsified Pedigrees were amended by TICA in 2006 to show the cats that introduced the Sepia Color Gene into the Ragdoll Breed were not a Ragdolls.You are avoiding that full disclosure of outcrossing by knowingly posting old/outdated TICA Pedigrees or home generated ones on your Webpage to mislead Pet Buyers and inexperienced and unknowlegeable Ragdoll Breeders into believing your Mink/Sepia Cats are pure Ragdoll that are fully traceable to one of the Ragdoll Breed Foundation Cats (Buckwheat). Please note that Liebling Mocha Madness is not traceable to Buckwheat. Also note: "IRCA Ragdolls" and "IRCA Miracles" are the Foundation Cats of the RagaMuffin Breed and that fact is included in the ACFA RagaMuffin Breed Standard since the Breeds inception.


    Curt Gehm
    Liebling Cats

    0 Votes
  • Ra
    Ragglerock Jun 23, 2010

    oh...oh ...oh ...let's share another quote ;-)

    "From the beginning, RagaMuffin breeders have faced the challenge of gaining acceptance for their cats as a distinct breed, despite their common origins with Ragdolls. "

    end quote

    attached some more of RaggleRock's Gorgeous SBT TICA Registered MINK Ragdolls
    IRENE

    Comments
    Comments
    Comments

    1 Votes
  • Ra
    Ragglerock Jun 23, 2010

    RagaMuffin history ...from their own breeders' website...

    and I quote...

    "By 1993 a group of breeders including Janet Klarmann, Curt Gehm and Kim Clark persuaded Baker to retire and planned to take over management of the association. After a few months, however, Ann Baker refused to relinquish control. Regretfully, the group voted to leave IRCA and seek recognition with established registries.

    Since their cats included all colors and patterns and they signed contracts not to use the Ragdoll name, the first crisis focused on what to call the cats, in the process of submitting a standard to American Cat Fanciers' Association. Klarmann credits Curt Gehm of Liebling Cats in Virginia with the choice of "RagaMuffin" because they came from the endearing little urchin cats of Riverside."

    end quote ...

    attached MINK SBT Ragdoll in Seal Tortie Bicolor residing in Germany ;-)

    Ain't that right Curt??

    Comments

    1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 16, 2010

    Here's the photo Irene so proudly displays on her webpage. Yes, she was the very FIRST SBT MINK RAGDOLL to be registered in TICA but she also had that status revoke because her pedigree as a Ragdoll was falsified. Ain't that right Irene?

    Comments

    -1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 10, 2010

    Comment

    Comments

    -1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 10, 2010

    Corrected:

    Comments

    0 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 10, 2010

    The Traditional Ragdoll Cat Society have been made aware of a number of Ragdolls which have been registered both in the UK and overseas who have 'Mink Ragdolls' in their pedigree. This information we are now passing on in good faith.

    The 'Mink' colouration was introduced into these cats by crossing to RagaMuffins, which are a distinctly different breed of cat, also developed by Ann Baker. There are two RagaMuffins in particular who appear incorrectly on Ragdoll pedigrees - these are Liebling Mocha Madness (often noted on pedigrees as just 'Mocha Madness') and Reggie of Rainbow Rags (often noted on pedigrees as just 'Reggie').

    "The RagaMuffin Breed was Founded on the IRCA cats when Ann began using Domestics and Persians to diversify her IRCA Ragdoll gene pool. These cats include Solid Color Cats and Mink colors. These are not entirely line traceable back to the original group of cats and their breeders who left Ann Baker and formed the Ragdoll Breed. These Breeders only had Colorpointed cats within their breeding programs. Colorpoint to Colorpoint breedings will only produce other colorpoints. Solids and Minks are therefore genetically impossible."
    Curt Gehm, Liebling RagaMuffins

    Georgann Chambers of Ragnarok Cattery had verified that there have been some errors with the registration of cats under another registry, the UCF. Due to these errors, RagaMuffins appeared as Ragdolls, and were subsequently transferred into TICA as full Ragdolls. The Certified Pedigrees were showing RagaMuffins as being Ragdolls, and this enabled these outcrosses to be transferred over to the GCCF using TICA certified pedigrees.

    The TICA records have now been amended to show the incorrectly registered cats on the pedigree as RagaMuffins. As advised by Curt Gehm, there are RagaMuffins in every single Mink Ragdoll pedigree, and there are also many colourpointed siblings which have also been sold as breeding cats over the years, so it is very important that breeders are aware of this problem.

    Below is a copy of an old, incorrect TICA pedigree, and below that a corrected copy. To fully understand the pedigree, you will also need to understand the TICA registration numbers, which I have also explained below:

    Comments

    0 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 10, 2010

    http://www.pictures-of-cats.org/the-ragamuffin-cat-and-the-princess.html

    Comments

    0 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 10, 2010

    I'm sorry I missed the part about Gemma. You're just too funny! Gemma bought her Variants directly from David Chambers of Ragnarock.It was he who falisified the records of my cats. You bought yours from Andrea Teymori of ADORABLE RAGDOLLS/ MINKCATS.COM who got them from Marla Knapp of DallasRags when she went belly-up, those Catteries are bye-bye while another is severely limited in their "Production" capabilities. I'm not sure about the Netherlands and don't really care ;) How many Ragdoll Breeders are in New Zealand? I've also been checking the TICA Standing Show Reports and don't see any listings for Ragdolls? Maybe you can tell me where I can view those? The best news is a RagaMuffin ( CAFE MOCHA VALENCIA) with a total of 10422 is the 7th best HHP in TICA.;) <object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iw8AWsupeXQ"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iw8AWsupeXQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>

    2 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 10, 2010

    Irene; Variant Cat.Please post TICA Certified pedigrees for your cats instead of those you generated by The Breeder’s Standard™ from Man’s Best Friend Software [protected]. LOL.

    Comments

    1 Votes
  • Ra
    Ragglerock Jun 09, 2010

    I NEVER get "run out of anything" as a matter of fact the CCA public and judges alike quite enjoyed the few ragdolls that I did show of the non-point variety. So I hear they are doing great in the show halls of TICA around the globe!! Recently even accepted in New Zealand, go ragdolls !!

    No wonder you have time on your hands ... Now I do understand ... No I am not a long time breeder as you put it (not dating back to 1960's), however many of my ragdoll breeder friends certainly are ... Gemma, Rovena they too are very tired to argue your points over and over again. Let's not, its old ;-)

    These breeders were there ... a time of myth, a time of lies, a time of development, a time where at least two breeds (ragdolls and ragamuffins) came to be ...

    As for falsified pedigrees, that's just something I CAN'T do ... I hear that some folks though do have some hands on experience with that and that's just part of the ongoing history now isn't it? ?All I have is TICA CERTIFIED PEDIGREES !!

    We all know, whether we like it or not that from at least "TODAY" on the ragdoll and ragamuffin breeds will exist in the various colors and patterns... you can argue the past, you can argue the breeds, you can argue the ancestry, argue whatever you will ... you can argue that everything about each breed is a complete and utter lie !!!

    There is ONLY ONE FACT that remains, TICA registered purebred Ragdolls in solid, in smoke, in silver, in mink ... SBT STATUS ... they do EXIST, they will continue to exist!! And if you are interested you know where to find them, at Ragglerock!

    I know you don't like to hear that, Curt, but its the truth!

    Attachement: Ragglerock Cindy Lou Too ... a seal tortie MINK mitted SBT status TICA and CCA registered RAGDOLL

    Isn't she a beauty!! One of my largest girls weighing in at 15+ lbs!!

    Comments

    1 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 09, 2010

    Dear Irene,


    The document you have posted was produced by the RagaMuffin Associated Group NOT me ;) We, as former IRCA Breeders had no choice but to believe whatever Ann Baker claimed was fact.Upon recieving Ann's records her facts became myths. You are not a long time Breeder Irene nor an ethical one using falsified pedigrees for your claims. The Dayton's had Colorpointed Ragdolls because that is all Ann had or produced or registered.As most people know I retired from actively breeding RagaMuffins in 2006. Liebling Cats were introduced into the Foundation RagaMuffin genepool that were recently registered in the GCCF. How are your Solid and Mink Variants doing in the CCA, still showing your Variants or did you get run out of the Show Halls?

    0 Votes
  • Ra
    Ragglerock Jun 09, 2010

    Are you kiddig Curt ...?? Business is better than EVER ;-)

    However not everyone is familiar with genetics in general and as breeders we should be aware of all the ins and outs and how they will affect the kittens we breed.

    How's business doing for your Raggies??

    Still showing them as much as ever before ;-)??

    With all your postings not sure how you find the time to raise any kittens at all ... IRENE

    My best to your success in 2010 ... its almost been another year come to an end, we all survived another one.

    1 Votes
  • Ra
    Ragglerock Jun 09, 2010

    Wow Curt ... you really are the biggest hypocrite EVER ;-)

    As so many long time ragdoll breeders have stated, you just aren't worth wasted our breath on ... but here it goes anyway since today I have nothing better to do ...

    I will just post the flyer for all to see ... perhaps in future I'll continue to post documents just so that others can make up their own minds...

    They can read what you say on one side and then what you have said in the past ... somehow things don't seem to be agreeing ;-)

    Cheers IRENE

    Comments

    0 Votes
  • Cu
    Curt Gehm Jun 09, 2010

    Irene, Simply loved your little article on your Website about the finer points of Breeding Variants ;) Buisiness must be getting tough for you with all the newer competition out there.

    0 Votes

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