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This Cattery currently displays outdated TICA Ragdoll Pedigrees on their Website.Irene has been advised that this is confusing the General Public into believing her Mink Ragdolls have been an established and accepted part of the Ragdoll Breed since the very inception of the Breed. This is not true. Mink and Sepia Ragdolls were derived from outcrosses to the RagaMuffin Breed. Irene needs to update her current website and the pedigrees she has posted.She needs to clearly state that the Sepia gene was introduced by outcrossing Ragdolls to the more popular RagaMuffin Breed. Mink Ragdolls are currently Ragdoll Breed Variants and are not inclusive to any written Ragdoll Breed Standard. I've included a website which clearly defines how Mink Ragdoll occured
http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm
"Did you know...you can obtain a Ragdoll kitten in solid? mink? smoke? shaded? Yes, the mink and solid Ragdoll I speak of are purebred, TICA registered Ragdoll kittens, not crosses to another breed."
This is a blantant lie on the part of Irene...
Minks, Sepias and Solids can ONLY be registered in TICA.These color Variants of the Ragdoll Breed are not an acceptable color for the Ragdoll Breed nor are they being bred to any of the existing Ragdoll Breed Standards.Since they are Breed Variants they cannot be transferred or registered in other recognized Cat Associations.
Ann Baker's cats and the International Ragdoll Cat Association's Breeds WERE NOT acceptable Breeds within the Cat Fancy.30 people can say anything and believe all they want about their pedigrees.What mattered was if the Cat Fancy as a whole believe them and the answer was a resounding NO! they didn't. .Ann's Pedigrees were never accepted nor were they ever made transferable into the Cat Fancy. This INCLUDED TICA.Please follow the link . I feel that if Breeders seriously want Solid, Mink or Sepia colors accepted into the Ragdoll Breed it would be best to admit that outcrossese to other accepted Breeds occured since they Ragdoll is a Colorpointed Breed.The Cat Fancy didn't give a hoot what Ann and the IRCA did privately.
http://www.messybeast.com/asheras.htm
How can they be half bred when it says mink Ragdoll?
Same reason you can Breed Ragdolls to American Curls or any other Breed in TICA and still get a TICA registration slip that says "Ragdoll". Try that in CFA or any other Cat Association and they would tell you to get lost. TICA likes to "register cats" and make money just like the Mink "Ragdoll" Breeders do! LOL. Instead of these Breeders just
breeding them to make money due to their rarity (LOL) start taking them to TICA Cat Shows and promote their vertues to the TICA Judges. You want them accepted then do the same work I did when I promoted the RagaMuffin Breed.Spend the money you're making of these "rare" cats instead of pocketing it! Mink RagaMuffins are not "RARE" and Mink Ragdoll Breeders really need to smarten up about that one! You'll always have me pointing out to look for the more common and less exspensive Muffins in those RARE Mink Ragdoll Pedigrees!
Muffins were derived from multiple IRCA Breeds which were different gene pools from the already recognized non-IRCA Ragdolls. The most I can say is that they shared
is the fact that their ancestors once lived at 156 Iowa Ave, Riverside, California.They shared an address and very little genetic heritage.
In my opinion the RagaMuffin Pedigrees shown on www.catpedigrees.com are not accurate since there are many mistakes on cats that I personally Bred and Owned.This certainly happens when one Breeder submited imformation from their "personal database" instead of using certified documents. As far as the Tuffytoe cats are concerned? They are listed as "IRCA Ragdolls" Please remember that they were never recognized as true Ragdolls by any of the Cat Assocaitions. The IRCA cats are the very foundation of the RagaMuffin Breed.
I feel that most of the Mink that are shown on "Mink Ragdoll" Websites ARE NOT true minks, so yes genetic DNA testing should be demanded.Once again all these Breeders are claiming full traceability to Ragdolls. This is not true. They are traceable to RagaMuffins
I believe some are these Mink Ragdoll Breeders are stupidly trying to say that their lines can be traced back genetically to Buckwheat! LOL. This is impossible! The most the DNA tests will prove is if that their cats are genetically carrying one copy of the Sepia Gene in case of Minks.2 copies if the the cat is a Sepia or Sable. The Mink and Sepia Ragdoll pedigrees all trace back to the RagaMuffin Breed.http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm
Here is a prime example of a Mink Ragdoll Breeder still posting outdated TICA Ragdoll Pedigrees.In the pedigree posted by www.raggglerock.com Phurry is still shown as an SBT purebred MINK RAGDOLL.Ragggleroack leads people to believe Mink Ragdolls are "PureBred" http://www.ragglerock.com/our_cats/kings/images/Minki.pdf
Please follow this link to see that Phurry's pedigree and status has been changed and amended.She may have been the first SBT registered MINK RAGDOLL in TICA history but she was also the first MINK Ragdoll to have that status revoked because of pedigree falsification.
http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm
http://www.dallasrags.com/about-us.htm
Hello Billie! LOL
http://www.dallasrags.com/guest-book.htm
Dear Irene,
"Curt Gehm DID start as an IRCA ragdoll breeder, the same cats registered as IRCA ragdolls became Ragamuffins overnight in TICA... how convenient..."
Yes I did start as an IRCA Breeder unfortunately the Cat Fancy as a whole did not and would not recognise any of the IRCA cats as a particular Breed.
"IRCA ragdolls became Ragamuffins overnight in TICA... how convenient..."
IRCA Cats were registered as "Experimental" Breed by TICA in 1994. TICA recognized the RagaMuffin "Breed Name" for registration in 2003 the same year CFA recognized the Breed Name.
"Curt Gehm and many of his Ragamuffin followers don't admit that our Ragdolls were and still are Registered as TICA Purebred SBT Ragdolls in the mink and solid variety."
They are registered in TICA but you forget to mention that the Ragdoll Breed Committee, the Majority of all Ragdoll Breeders (Worldwide) and the Ragdoll Breed Standard still consider them unaccepted and UNACCEPTABLE Variants of the Ragdoll Breed.
"Unfortunately in the pedigree you will see cats owned by Curt and others as "overnight" having changed status from Ragdoll to ragamuffin...how convenient for them"
My cats were already registered in ACFA and TICA. Their Status from RagaMuffin to Ragdoll was changed overnight by David Chambers when he re-registered my cats in UCF as Ragdolls and transferred those records into TICA. He didn't own my cats or breed them now did he Irene? You bought your cats from Marla and Billie Knapp knowing all this now didn't you?
Ragdolls are a Colorpointed Breed of Cats and Irene of Ragglerock Breeds and promotes Unaccepted Variants of the Ragdoll Breed.To learn more about Mink Variant Ragdolls please follow the link below;
http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm
Good sites for reputable Breeder recommendations would be:
For Ragdolls,
http://www.ragdollcentral.com/forum/index.php
For RagaMuffins,
http://ragamuffinsragamuffinsragamuffins.yuku.com/
Hello Rovena,
Tuftytoes Mayde is not listed as a RagaMuffin and no paperwork was ever "hung" on her or any of your Cats. She has her full TICA foundation registration # 02T060584-027 as do the rest of your cats. Please remember that when you were an IRCA Breeder that Ann had your Breeding Records which she then transferred to us.Mayde was bred from Jabber Jaws and Chanissa. You did sell cats to other Breeders cats that did breed your cats to RagaMuffins so Jabber Jaws and Chanissa will be in some RagaMuffin pedigrees. They are listed as "Ragdolls", either IRCA registered or TICA registered.
Curt
Irene still has not posted accurate TICA generated Pedigrees on her Website for her "Mink Ragdolls" indicating these Minks were outcrossed from RagaMuffins.She still shows "Phurry" as an SBT Ragdoll which is false Information!
No Irene.Nothing you will contiue to do will personally affect you or YOUR cats but you are destroying and tainting the integrity and the reputation of the entire Ragdoll Breed in your process.This includes destroying the years of hard work and dedication ever other Ragdoll Breeder put into the Breed before you came along. The Ragdoll has always been a blue-Eyed and Pointed Breed according to the Breed Originator and Founder Ann Baker.Your current Ragdoll Variants do not stem from the original Ragdoll lines.They are outcrosses from other Breeds. You are also currently not breeding your cats within any accepted or written Ragdoll Breed Standard so it's your choice to breed Variants and then sell them as Rare.What makes them Rare? is the fact that every other reputable and ethical Ragdoll Breeder chooses to breed within the Breed Standards to improve on the cats they produce for the continuation of the Breed.It is fully your choice to Breed outside those accepted Standards breeding away from it.You also knowingly purchased Mink Kittens from my personally bred and registered RagaMuffin lines that had TICA pedigrees "Hung" on them as Ragdolls.Those cats have never been traceable nor will they ever be traceable to the Foundation Cats of the Ragdoll Breed.You are completely misleading everyone with your far fetched claims that they do. Like you said, you Breed Variants and Pets, all for the high prices and profit which goes right into your pocketbook.
Purrs,
Curt
Irene, Simply loved your little article on your Website about the finer points of Breeding Variants ;) Buisiness must be getting tough for you with all the newer competition out there.
Dear Irene,
The document you have posted was produced by the RagaMuffin Associated Group NOT me ;) We, as former IRCA Breeders had no choice but to believe whatever Ann Baker claimed was fact.Upon recieving Ann's records her facts became myths. You are not a long time Breeder Irene nor an ethical one using falsified pedigrees for your claims. The Dayton's had Colorpointed Ragdolls because that is all Ann had or produced or registered.As most people know I retired from actively breeding RagaMuffins in 2006. Liebling Cats were introduced into the Foundation RagaMuffin genepool that were recently registered in the GCCF. How are your Solid and Mink Variants doing in the CCA, still showing your Variants or did you get run out of the Show Halls?
Irene; Variant Cat.Please post TICA Certified pedigrees for your cats instead of those you generated by The Breeder’s Standard™ from Man’s Best Friend Software [protected]. LOL.
I'm sorry I missed the part about Gemma. You're just too funny! Gemma bought her Variants directly from David Chambers of Ragnarock.It was he who falisified the records of my cats. You bought yours from Andrea Teymori of ADORABLE RAGDOLLS/ MINKCATS.COM who got them from Marla Knapp of DallasRags when she went belly-up, those Catteries are bye-bye while another is severely limited in their "Production" capabilities. I'm not sure about the Netherlands and don't really care ;) How many Ragdoll Breeders are in New Zealand? I've also been checking the TICA Standing Show Reports and don't see any listings for Ragdolls? Maybe you can tell me where I can view those? The best news is a RagaMuffin ( CAFE MOCHA VALENCIA) with a total of 10422 is the 7th best HHP in TICA.;)
http://www.pictures-of-cats.org/the-ragamuffin-cat-and-the-princess.html
The Traditional Ragdoll Cat Society have been made aware of a number of Ragdolls which have been registered both in the UK and overseas who have 'Mink Ragdolls' in their pedigree. This information we are now passing on in good faith.
The 'Mink' colouration was introduced into these cats by crossing to RagaMuffins, which are a distinctly different breed of cat, also developed by Ann Baker. There are two RagaMuffins in particular who appear incorrectly on Ragdoll pedigrees - these are Liebling Mocha Madness (often noted on pedigrees as just 'Mocha Madness') and Reggie of Rainbow Rags (often noted on pedigrees as just 'Reggie').
"The RagaMuffin Breed was Founded on the IRCA cats when Ann began using Domestics and Persians to diversify her IRCA Ragdoll gene pool. These cats include Solid Color Cats and Mink colors. These are not entirely line traceable back to the original group of cats and their breeders who left Ann Baker and formed the Ragdoll Breed. These Breeders only had Colorpointed cats within their breeding programs. Colorpoint to Colorpoint breedings will only produce other colorpoints. Solids and Minks are therefore genetically impossible."
Curt Gehm, Liebling RagaMuffins
Georgann Chambers of Ragnarok Cattery had verified that there have been some errors with the registration of cats under another registry, the UCF. Due to these errors, RagaMuffins appeared as Ragdolls, and were subsequently transferred into TICA as full Ragdolls. The Certified Pedigrees were showing RagaMuffins as being Ragdolls, and this enabled these outcrosses to be transferred over to the GCCF using TICA certified pedigrees.
The TICA records have now been amended to show the incorrectly registered cats on the pedigree as RagaMuffins. As advised by Curt Gehm, there are RagaMuffins in every single Mink Ragdoll pedigree, and there are also many colourpointed siblings which have also been sold as breeding cats over the years, so it is very important that breeders are aware of this problem.
Below is a copy of an old, incorrect TICA pedigree, and below that a corrected copy. To fully understand the pedigree, you will also need to understand the TICA registration numbers, which I have also explained below:
Corrected:
Comment
Here's the photo Irene so proudly displays on her webpage. Yes, she was the very FIRST SBT MINK RAGDOLL to be registered in TICA but she also had that status revoke because her pedigree as a Ragdoll was falsified. Ain't that right Irene?
Irene please notice in your quote and in the intervue given to Cat Fancy Magazine that the Breed Name "RagaMuffin" was given to these mixed bred cats by me because they came from " the endearing little urchin cats of Riverside", not Ragdolls :) You know just as well as I do that the Cat Fancy and all the Cat Associations as as a whole did not/would not consider or recognize Ann Baker's later day IRCA Cats to be of any particular Breed.Even Ann distinguished these IRCA cats as different so why are you misleadingly and continually refering to them as Ragdolls. :) The fact remains you bought your Mink colored cats from DallasRags and Marla and Billie Knapp knowing TICA registered RagaMuffins had Ragdoll pedigrees hung on them by David Chambers.His falsified Pedigrees were amended by TICA in 2006 to show the cats that introduced the Sepia Color Gene into the Ragdoll Breed were not a Ragdolls.You are avoiding that full disclosure of outcrossing by knowingly posting old/outdated TICA Pedigrees or home generated ones on your Webpage to mislead Pet Buyers and inexperienced and unknowlegeable Ragdoll Breeders into believing your Mink/Sepia Cats are pure Ragdoll that are fully traceable to one of the Ragdoll Breed Foundation Cats (Buckwheat). Please note that Liebling Mocha Madness is not traceable to Buckwheat. Also note: "IRCA Ragdolls" and "IRCA Miracles" are the Foundation Cats of the RagaMuffin Breed and that fact is included in the ACFA RagaMuffin Breed Standard since the Breeds inception.
Curt Gehm
Liebling Cats
Irene, So according to your Website you feel you are preserving and saving something right? What Pedigree Falsifications? What a Legacy!
Noticed your home made Pedigrees are not signed by you. Care to explain this to people?
I certify that this pedigree is true and complete
to the best of my knowledge
_____________________________________ Date:____________
If Ragdoll Breeders want the Minks and Solids accepted then let them get out and Show them in the TICA New Color Divisions.The Solid and especially the Mink Ragdoll Breeders also need to stop misleading people into believing their Variants are traceable the Original Ragdoll Breed Foundation Cats. The Minks are not traceable to BUCKWHEAT! :)
http://pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=238797&g=4&p=rag
Irene,
Seems PAWPEDS has recently made changes to their Ragdoll Database and currently indicate "Mink Variant Ragdolls" were derived from RagaMuffin Outcrosses. ;)
Curt Gehm
Liebling Cats
Martin98
The reason they are rare is simply because most reputable knowleadgeble Ragdoll Breeders don't breed Minks or Solids because they know the Breed Standard requires Ragdolls to be Colorpointed Cats
Obviously TICA changed the pedigree records because they were proven to be incorect.
http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm
"Mink Ragdolls" will always be Ragdoll Breed Variants. Mink Ragdolls are RARE simply because most Ragdoll Breeders breed Ragdolls to the Breed Standard which states a Ragdoll is Colorpointed cat. Mink Ragdolls are not Colorpointed and therefore "Mink Ragdoll Breeders "are breeding cats away from the Ragdoll Breed Standard. Mink RagaMuffins were recently advanced into championship status in CFA in 2011. ;)
"It appears rather unprofessional of you to try so hard to spread dirt about other breeders; only insecure people use the means of slander to try to hurt their competition. Here's a hint, it doesn't give you more credibility and makes you sound excessively stubborn, repetitive, hateful and jealous."
I think it's extremely unprofessional of Ragdoll Breeders like yourself to pawn off and sell Mink Ragdolls for thousands of dollars knowing your Ragdoll Breed Variants do not trace to the Ragdoll Breed Foundation Cats.All of you are advertising these Ragdoll Variants as originals. I love Mink RagaMuffins especially mine that added the Sepia Gene to the current Mink Ragdoll Breed Variants. The sooner Mink Ragdoll Breeders acknowledge Mink Ragdolls were obtained from RagaMuffin outcrosses the sooner these Variant Ragdoll Breeders will possibly obtain some respectability within the Cat Fancy. As Owner of the cats that introduced the Sepia Gene to your Mink Ragdolls I am very dissapointed not one of you know the history of these cats. It's a sad situation that you Breed for profit and not acceptance of the Variants. How many times have you shown your cats?
http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm
Dear Orpheous,
Ann Baker never included "Solid" colors in the Ragdoll Breed or the Ragdoll Breed Standard. She rejected all Solids as Ragdolls and registered them as Experimental Persians and were placed into Persian Breeding Programs. You do not know the Ragdoll Breed history! All current Mink Ragdolls were derived from outcrosses to RagaMuffins, including the ones Irene exported to Australia with TICA Pedigrees that were accepted by TFA. LOL!
http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm
Curt Gehm
Liebling Cats
I've attached a picture of my beautiful Blue Mink RagaMuffin who is registered in CFA and ACFA. I'll be showing him in 2013
"TICA was accepting registrations for around 10 years of the Ann Baker Ragdolls (which included ALL colors) before the Ragamuffin was accepted for registration in ACFA."
Rovena your statement is naturally completely false! IRCA registration were never directly accepted by TICA from the IRCA since they didn't "share" reciprocity with each other. The IRCA was not and never was a VALID CAT ASSOCIATION. Solid, Mink & Sepia "Ragdolls" registered in TICA are considered 'Variants" of the Ragdoll Breed. They are soley registrable by TICA. You were previously a Member of the TICA Ragdoll Breed Committee so you are also aware of the fact that the Solids, Mink & Sepia "Variant Ragdolls" have been consistently and recently rejected by a Majority Vote of the TICA Ragdoll Breed Section for inclusion within the Breed Standard. P.S. Ann Baker sold IRCA Ragdolls and IRCA Miracle Ragdolls to her Breeders. These "IRCA" registered Breeds" were the Foundation Cats of the RagaMuffin Breed, which is clearly stated in the RagaMuffin Breed Standard. You or anyone else might want to join our conversations about these TICA "Variant Ragdolls" over at The Ragdoll Cat Forums: http://www.ragdollcatguide.com/forum/index.php
Rovena,
Why don't you join us over at The Ragdoll Cat Forums. People are always asking questions about the "Variant Ragdolls'. http://www.ragdollcatguide.com/forum/index.php
"I have had descendants of my cats shown and reach grand Championship status in several associations."
Colorpointed descendants of your Cats have been shown & reached Championship status in several associations, NOT SOLIDS. NOT MINKS. NOT SEPIA.
"She continued to sell the pointed but also had the solids and minks, too, and called them and registered them in her registry as Ragdoll cats."
She called them (Solids & Minks) MANY different Breed names such as Miracles, Little Americans, Maximillions, Ragdoll Tu's, and even Catenoids BUT Ann Baker always distinguished them separately from her COLORPOINTED "IRCA Ragdolls" Solids, Minks & Sepias were not included in Ann's own written Ragdoll Breed Standard which states the Ragdoll is a Blue-Eyed Colorpointed Breed. Remember Rovena, All the former IRCA Breeds are the Foundation Cats of the RagaMuffin Breed, including those that were reregistered as Ragdolls by David Chambers in UCF and transferred back into TICA six years after I first submitted ACFA pedigrees into TICA on the same cats (RagaMuffins)
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
I just purchased a seal point mink ragdoll and it is a beautiful cat. At some point I might want to show my cat. I have raised and exhibited pigeons for years (Yes there are Pigeon shows and hundreds of breeds of pigeons} and I do know that most breeders of fancy pigeons outcross to help get specific color, type and temperament. I bred Old Dutch Capuchines and many breeders crossed the ODC to Modenas to improve type. After many generations you had Old Dutch Capuchines with better type. My point is that the Ragdoll is still a young breed as far as cats go and there is most likely going to be some past crossbreeding to get specific type and color.
JMO
This is to the comment that IRCA was never a valid cat association: I never said it was! Cats from IRCA that were registered into TICA for that decade preceding the registration of the Ragamuffin were registered foundation. That means they had one or both parents of unrecognized or unknown registry. In a number of cases, because Ann Baker did have breeding stock registered in NCFA and the fact that a number of breeders also owned and bred their already registered and recognized traditional Ragdolls, were able to show pedigree information on them, even though on the TICA certificate of registration the words "unknown" are typed. This is to the comment that they (the minks & solids) do not live up to the standards and are not actively bred for by quality breeders: Any Ragdoll cat, irrespective of coat and eye color should be actively bred to the standard! Blue eye color and point color isn't the be all and end all of the standard, What happened to size? coat texture? head type? etc. Anyone can breed a blue-eyed pointed fluffy cat and say it's a Ragdoll then. On Ann Baker's literature (and for that matter, at least the early traditional breeders) stated that the first thing the Ragdoll is bred for is the personality! Then size, type, pattern, and lastly, color. I say again, Just because a group of breeders broke early from Ann Baker and promoted the Ragdoll in the registries using the breed name that Ann Baker coined and her 1st written standard, does not mean that Ann Baker could not, should not, take the cats she had left and breed them, add something in, promote them, sell them. She continued to sell the pointed but also had the solids and minks, too, and called them and registered them in her registry as Ragdoll cats. TICA doesn't work the same as other cat associations. And I am not trying to "destroy" the breed. I've been breeding Ragdolls for 30 years now in both pointed and solid colors and haven't seen it destroyed yet. Though because of various reasons I haven't been able to show, I have had descendants of my cats shown and reach grand Championship status in several associations.
Ragdolls are a pointed cat, with blue eyes, that is born white, and it's colour develops slowly over time.
A mink, sepia or solid "ragdoll" is NOT a pointed cat, with blue eyes, that is born white, and it's colour develops slowly over time.
They are only 'rare' because they do not live up to standards, and are not actively bred for by quality breeders. If you want these cats, start your own breed. Stop trying to destroy the ragdoll.
You are crazy. If the DNA test show full blooded ragdoll and you put traditional with any other ragdoll and you get both that test our red, it's a Ragdoll. Those recessive genes are still in the breed and can show up at any time. Now days minks, Sepias and solids are produced with the blue eyes. Also, the mink and the sepia are a pointed coat cat. It's clearly visible. What I've discovered is that the mink, sepia and solids are often time more appealing to the eye. It's not all a marketing ploy. People like what they see. Many of the top breeders have them. Quality cats at that.
Short History lesson: Ann Baker started the Ragdoll breed. She continued to breed her cats for many many years and continued to do so even after a group of breeders bought cats from her and took the name of her breed and her description of the breed to the various cat associations and made her breed their breed. Ann Baker's original standard for show is for the cat that had the mitted pattern only and only in 2 pointed colors. The others promoted the breed in 3 color patterns and 4 colors. Many of these breeders claimed that the cat breed came from 3 breeds, persian, birman, & burmese. Ann Baker's claim was from her purebred persian to random breed presian look alke, angora look alike, birman look alike, and burmese look alike. Ann Baker re-introduced the look alikes back into her breeding program and registered the non- pointed as experimental persian in NCFA. NCFA is now defunct and work to attain these certificates has been done but it is assumed they have all been destroyed. Ann Baker did not know color genetics and did not know all the ins and outs of breeding for certain colors and patterns. The solid, minks, and sepias lines were reincorporated into the breed shortly after the first Ragdolls were being registered with the associations because those breeders had Ann Baker;s cats banned from being registered. TICA is a different type of registry. TICA is based on "first you build the barn and then paint it" idea. TICA was accepting registrations for around 10 years of the Ann Baker Ragdolls (which included ALL colors) before the Ragamuffin was accepted for registration in ACFA. TICA did not have to all of a sudden follow ACFA's or the Ragamuffins rules for registering cats. Ann Baker sold RAGDOLL cats to her breeders, not Ragamuffins. A registered Ragdoll bred to an ACFA Ragamuffin would be considered a Ragdoll bred to a cat of an "unknown" breed and the 1st generation would be called Ragdoll because Ragamuffins at that time were NOT a recognized breed in TICA. Just because TICA decades later then accepts Ragamuffins as an experimental breed does not make all those generations of previously registered Ragdolls turn automatically into Ragamuffins.
Show Quality Price. Show quality price is whatever the breeder feels another would be willing to pay for a particular cat of any particular line. Cats with Championship behind their names do not automatically produce show quality kittens and then there are many cases of not so show quality cats being bred together and produce show quality kittens. Also, many buyers of the pets don't even have a clue as to how much money goes into breeding for good quality kittens. How many times I have heard "I only want a pet, hard times, I only want to pay no more than $300 or $400 for a pet kitten, I'm not going to breed it". Well, it can cost that much and more for 1 trip to the vet to get the kitten it's check-up, it's worming, it's shots. Then there is the want to know if the parents have been tested for HCM even if all the grandparents have been and you can show the reports. Cost around $60. Then there is the customer who wants a certified pedigree. Cost of up to $50 depending upon no. of generations. Food, litter, etd. If the breeder does their own shots you can bet you get a customer who wails about the possibility of it not getting the right care before selling so a breeder has got to have a vet back up. I could go on.
As a buyer all of this is just too confusing. I feel like I'm getting scammed. Why should we pay the high dollar for a Mink, Solid, or Sepia as a "rare". When they are not recognized by the TICA? I looked it up myself. If the cat doesn't come from a "show quality" breeder, then why are we expected to pay even more than a "show quality cat"? All we have is their word that the cat is a true Ragdoll. Just because someone says they are cute, doesn't mean we have to pay show quality prices...or more in some cases. ? At least if a person "shows" their animals you know they have thier reputation, in the show world, on the line.
Please, everyone like me...do your research! Go to the TCIA website. They list thier registered breeders in your area. http://www.tica.org/search/search.php?zoom_query=ENCHANTEDCATS&zoom_per_page=10&zoom_and=0&zoom_sort=0
By certain standards I am a new breeder (8 years). But I have been studying the Ragdoll and will continue to learn and keep an open mind. I myself with a few other reputable Breeders here in Australia are trying to get the "Non Traditional Ragdoll" accepted here to Championship Status. We're already able to register our Solid and Mink RAGDOLLS as yet we haven't got any Sepia's. One breeder in particular has spent a lot of time researching the Dark Side and spent a lot of money importing a Solid Ragdoll as we want to keep the Ragdoll as pure as possible. We didn't want to outcross to other breeds to create the Solid Ragdoll here in Australia and call it another name and why should we when they HAVE been there from the beginning. Everybody has a right to their own opinion and I respect that but in saying that, I expect the same in return. It looks like this topic will always be controversy. The thing is we all want whats right for the cat and the breed (well most of us do). Look at the facts that have been laid out before us in black and white the original Ragdolls did have Solids. The ragdoll people split into two camps one promoted the point side of the Ragdoll and they forged ahead with that and I congratulate them. But don't forget the other side, the Dark Side and also don't forget, Seeing you all like to say quotes well here in Australia we have one too its called the Quiet Achiever.
I have attached my beautiful Blue Mink Ragdoll who is TFA registered here in Australia. Look out next year when we submit our proposal to the ACF.
Curt Gehm is such a nutcase, just like Candice Prowting from Eiserblew Ragdolls lokated in UK.
Wow, I just found this thread and I can't believe all this nitpicking. Curt you clearly have way too much time on your hands, and obvious jealousy toward successful breeders and the mink lines in general. What did minks do to you to get you into such a hissy fit so as to pick apart some ancient pedigrees? It appears rather unprofessional of you to try so hard to spread dirt about other breeders; only insecure people use the means of slander to try to hurt their competition. Here's a hint, it doesn't give you more credibility and makes you sound excessively stubborn, repetitive, hateful and jealous.
Ragdolls are simply amazing no matter how they got here, they're originally a mix of several breeds anyway it's not like they're some pure breed from centuries ago. What makes it a sin if there's an incident of an offshoot breed like the Ragamuffin supposedly included in some Ragdoll lines? Oh my gosh, BIG deal! They're the same cat except for color. I personally think the more color options a breed has the more appealing it is to a wider range of people. I love variety and also think its boring that only the pointed blue-eyed Ragdolls are promoted as the breed standard by the big shots and the show halls. The more rare options and colors there are, the more fun it is to breed.
I love my Ragdolls to death and would do so regardless of their ancient history. I don't see the point of arguing some cryptic pedigree records. Ragdolls of all colors are popular, and they will continue to be no matter what you say about them Curt. You might just have to deal with it someday. Why don't you focus all your incredible energy into promoting your own breed instead of trying to bring down another, huh? That's an idea for you.
Today's Ragdolls are registered purebreds. End of story. Even the minks and whatever other colors you traditionalists keep treating like the plague. If the cats could only hear you people arguing, they'd be laughing hysterically at how silly humans are. Got to go, pizza's here..
Nobody should go around changing pedigrees unles ABSOLUTLY known to be incorrect. This is messing up everything.
MR CURT must feel very threatened about these mink ragdolls. Why would anyone keep trying to convince others not to purcahse mink ragdolls and point out pedigrees that may not even be correct. Any breeder can write anything down and send it in to a cat regsitery like TICA or CFA. Even if they were out crossed to ragamuffin cats to get there color they are EXCEPTABLE and are called mink ragdolls and are pedigree cats. They are rare because not many people own them or hear of them but people love them and want them. After all most breeds are man made anyway and I belive the crossing to mink helps widen the gene pool to weed out health defects if one brings in healthy cats.
DOES IT REALLY MATTER WHERE MINK CAME FROM? Grow up Curt people love these colors and we are aloud to breed them as PEDIGREE ragdolls. There is no difference in traits or personality. From what I learned from over 60 breeders is that this mink color was created in the begining with in the ragdoll breed. The breeder who made them did not want the color anymore and just bred pointed. The mink was then a part of the ragamuffin breed. So without a ragdoll there would not even be a ragamuffin LOL stupid so there for no minks !
All pure bred cat breeds have to start somewhere. When you say Mink Ragdolls are an outcross of ragamuffins; Well aren't Ragdolls outcrosses of persians and domestics and god knows what else? I know you have to draw the line somewhere when making breed standards, but I think Minks, Sepias, and Solids should definitely be included. I am not a breeder so I am not trying to advocate my breeding regime. I am just a lover of the breed and think Minks make a beautiful variation to the ragdoll breed. The breed would be boring if it was all one noted traditional color points. I say as long as they have the same standard colorings: seal, blue, flame, lilac, solid, chocolate and the same markings: bi-color, blaze, lynx ect.. Both mink and white should be accepted as a registered Ragdoll. Look at other cats, they have variety. The bengal has the traditional brown colouring and the snow version.
oh...oh ...oh ...let's share another quote ;-)
"From the beginning, RagaMuffin breeders have faced the challenge of gaining acceptance for their cats as a distinct breed, despite their common origins with Ragdolls. "
end quote
attached some more of RaggleRock's Gorgeous SBT TICA Registered MINK Ragdolls
IRENE
RagaMuffin history ...from their own breeders' website...
and I quote...
"By 1993 a group of breeders including Janet Klarmann, Curt Gehm and Kim Clark persuaded Baker to retire and planned to take over management of the association. After a few months, however, Ann Baker refused to relinquish control. Regretfully, the group voted to leave IRCA and seek recognition with established registries.
Since their cats included all colors and patterns and they signed contracts not to use the Ragdoll name, the first crisis focused on what to call the cats, in the process of submitting a standard to American Cat Fanciers' Association. Klarmann credits Curt Gehm of Liebling Cats in Virginia with the choice of "RagaMuffin" because they came from the endearing little urchin cats of Riverside."
end quote ...
attached MINK SBT Ragdoll in Seal Tortie Bicolor residing in Germany ;-)
Ain't that right Curt?
I NEVER get "run out of anything" as a matter of fact the CCA public and judges alike quite enjoyed the few ragdolls that I did show of the non-point variety. So I hear they are doing great in the show halls of TICA around the globe! Recently even accepted in New Zealand, go ragdolls !
No wonder you have time on your hands ... Now I do understand ... No I am not a long time breeder as you put it (not dating back to 1960's), however many of my ragdoll breeder friends certainly are ... Gemma, Rovena they too are very tired to argue your points over and over again. Let's not, its old ;-)
These breeders were there ... a time of myth, a time of lies, a time of development, a time where at least two breeds (ragdolls and ragamuffins) came to be ...
As for falsified pedigrees, that's just something I CAN'T do ... I hear that some folks though do have some hands on experience with that and that's just part of the ongoing history now isn't it? ?All I have is TICA CERTIFIED PEDIGREES !
We all know, whether we like it or not that from at least "TODAY" on the ragdoll and ragamuffin breeds will exist in the various colors and patterns... you can argue the past, you can argue the breeds, you can argue the ancestry, argue whatever you will ... you can argue that everything about each breed is a complete and utter lie !
There is ONLY ONE FACT that remains, TICA registered purebred Ragdolls in solid, in smoke, in silver, in mink ... SBT STATUS ... they do EXIST, they will continue to exist! And if you are interested you know where to find them, at Ragglerock!
I know you don't like to hear that, Curt, but its the truth!
Attachement: Ragglerock Cindy Lou Too ... a seal tortie MINK mitted SBT status TICA and CCA registered RAGDOLL
Isn't she a beauty! One of my largest girls weighing in at 15+ lbs!
Are you kiddig Curt ...? Business is better than EVER ;-)
However not everyone is familiar with genetics in general and as breeders we should be aware of all the ins and outs and how they will affect the kittens we breed.
How's business doing for your Raggies?
Still showing them as much as ever before ;-)?
With all your postings not sure how you find the time to raise any kittens at all ... IRENE
My best to your success in 2010 ... its almost been another year come to an end, we all survived another one.
Wow Curt ... you really are the biggest hypocrite EVER ;-)
As so many long time ragdoll breeders have stated, you just aren't worth wasted our breath on ... but here it goes anyway since today I have nothing better to do ...
I will just post the flyer for all to see ... perhaps in future I'll continue to post documents just so that others can make up their own minds...
They can read what you say on one side and then what you have said in the past ... somehow things don't seem to be agreeing ;-)
Cheers IRENE
Ragglerock cattery breeds for VERY LOVING, DOCILE, HEALTHY, ragdoll cats with the temperament they were intended to have.
We DO NOT put color or type of ragdoll at the top of our priority list when it comes to loving kittens, with sweet hearts, that own you from the moment you pick it up or have it delivered.
Ragdolls did not ask for a tainted and yet interesting past history. But now that they have it hey why not... why not talk about the skunk gene or the UFO gene ...
My cats are all my loving pets first, I do not overbreed my sweethearts and I retire early so they have a long life as a forever pet. Ragglerock does however tend to specialize AND keep alive the rarer ragdolls.
These include chocolate, lilac, minks and solids and blue-eyed whites both as pets and for breeding.
Be sure to visit our website at http://www.ragglerock.com and hop on over to the KITTEN page to see what we may have available for you!
Cheers IRENE
Irene will continue to post Certified Pedigrees as provided to her by TICA which were accurate at the time of printing, this is also how TICA states it ;-)
So I have NO intention on changing what was accurate, current pedigrees may have ragdolls changed to ragamuffins BUT this does NOT affect me or MY CATS in any way !
Since all these wonderful cats stemmed from the same cattery in the beginning and all their decents since are crossed to "whatever" ... I see no need. IRENE
Well I got one cat from Elegant Rags, when I first picked him up he sneezed all the way home and he didn't get any better, brought him to the vet, and then again to vet for the same problem. Now he's peeing everywhere but the litterbox, brought him to the vet and he has a urinary tract infection with crystals, so he got a shot and now I have to give him special food forever.
Does anyone know of Elegant rags/Lovely rags? Please let me know
This is in reference to Tuftytoes Mayde and Tuftytoes Sneakers. First of all Tuftytoes cattery is my cattery and the Ragdolls I own were cats bought from Ann Baker and a couple of IRCA breeders of the 1970's to early 1980's. I owned the parent cats, to Mayde. I also owned the parent cats to Sneakers. There is no such cat as Tuftytoes Maybe. Mayde was never sold to anyone. The cat lived her whole life here at my home. I have the records of who bought cats from me. Tuftytoes Sneakers was a black and white MALE that was sold as a pet. There should be no offspring of his listed anywhere. All my cats were foundation registered, whether they were of the pointed or solid colors, in TICA since the 1980's according to their rules and were also evaluated by judges of TICA before registration. Whomever listed Tuftytoes Mayde or Sneakers as Ragamuffins had to be hanging papers for neither cat was ever registered or sold as a Ragamuffin. The Ragamuffin breed didn't get it's name until the 1990's and both these cats were born in the 1980's well before the Ragamuffin breed.
Rovena Parmley
I am reading the site as a potential purchaser of a lovely pet for our home. I think ragdolls and raggaMuffins are darling and minks are beautiful! I like the ragdolls for their sweet dispostion and it seems ragamuffins are similar. I am more interested in recommendations on good breeders that will live up to what is on the various websites out there! Any help on this out there? For instance Elegant ragdolls has a bad reputation...any others to stay away from...comments appreciated...
To Curt and anyone reading... we would like to post a short remark...(Ragglerock Cattery in Canada) ...
First DO NOT be FOOLED ... Curt Gehm DID start as an IRCA ragdoll breeder, the same cats registered as IRCA ragdolls became Ragamuffins overnight in TICA... how convenient...
Also I really don't care that there is an outcross, many breeds including the ragdoll were outcrossed to such breeds as the Birman, Himalayan, Persian etc, This was to establish better colors and a greater bloodline. I think most folks would like to see the diversity in order to see healthier cats!
However what kills me... is especially Curt Gehm and many of his Ragamuffin followers don't admit that our Ragdolls were and still are Registered as TICA Purebred SBT Ragdolls in the mink and solid variety... Unfortunately in the pedigree you will see cats owned by Curt and others as "overnight" having changed status from Ragdoll to ragamuffin...how convenient for them...Personally don't care...want to play that game, go ahead, register your cats as Sphynx, or Muchkins...whatever you feel like.
Well the fact is that Ann Baker at one time had well over 250 cats which were bred together to make these wonderful breeds...both the Ragdoll and the Ragamuffin stemmed from this...it is only in the recent breeders choice of how to continue the breeding that we have a division in the classification...What started as one breed has become two very distinct breeds...
A ragdoll is NOT a ragamuffin...not in todays standard...and not by today's breeding options...OUR MINKS are PUREBRED ... SBT registered...TICA certitifed ... RAGDOLLLS ...sorry to disappoint our friends like Curt...ours are Ragdolls...your minks are ragamuffins...
Thanks to all who want to know more...Please contact on personal email ...Irene of Ragglerock in Canada
Zzzzzzzzzzzz & rediculouswordsisu, both of you: thanks for your comments!
Curt,
I think you're just a [censored] that didn't want a "woman" telling you how to run your cattery and cats. So you took your cats, got bent, and changed the name to the Ragamuffin. Its VERY obvious that without the ragdoll breed your ragamuffins would NEVER exist.
curt ... dude, get a life, man. you have posted like 4, 000 words on this ridiculous topic!
Other breeders post this on their websites as well. Use caution buyers!
I have another thought for those of you who are about to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a pet ragdoll, [besides don't that is]. Its time as consumers to start making a few demands of your own. Don't let yourself be bullied by the breeders, as some ragdoll breeders do. they want YOU to fill out an adoption form, , they want YOU to sign an agreement that they have laid out and which frankly is only for the protection of the breeder. Remember you are the buyer, you should be in control of the situation. Make that breeder show you proof that the kittens a mink, they will claim that a responsible breeder have their stock dna's, have them do the same on the kitten. DNA only costs $40 and for the incredible amount they want you to fork over for kitten its not a lot to ask. The dna will show whether that cat is a mink or not, and they can have it run with samples from both parents to show that those cats are really what they claim that they really are pkd and hcm clear, that they have all the the outrageous claims they are making. Don't let the breeder of these mink ragdolls rule the game, you as a buyer paying a huge amount of money have rights too, use them. The breeder can claim that the dna on the parents show this or that and you don't really know that they ever really had dna done. You are taking their word on it and that is foolish. Get it in writing. After all they want you to believe a lot including ridiculous claims, when you could just buy a beautiful ragamuffin, which can put exceed the mink ragdolls looks, in my opinion. Here you can see a sable and white raggamuffin. Think about it. Excert some buying power don't just roll over and give them the money without you getting assurances and guarantees that benefit YOU.
Check these ragamuffin kittens out, you can see that minks are not RARE as these ragdoll breeders are leading you to believe. Why, follow the money folks.
http://www.kaerikrags.com/pastlitters.htm
Ragdoll genetics are a colorful work of fictionalized history I think. I have seen ragdolls turn toward the minks and solids when the prices on traditional ragdolls went down. All of a sudden these cats starting coming out of the woodwork and their genetics is interesting and entertaining. Take for instance some ragdolls also listed as a ragamuffin http://www.catpedigrees.com/cgi-bin/breeding24.pl?op=breeding&index=976&gens=5&db=Ragtime.dbw
Here you can see Tuftytoes Maybe and a Mayde, a deliberate attempt to confuse by changing one letter of the name a technique that people trying to defraud a company uses by trying to confuse the computer by mispelling their name.
On this pedigree you can also see Sneaker listed as both breeds. And if that weren't interesting enough, take a look at poor St. Patrick, apparently someone was very creative with that cat and I think the poor thing must have needed therapy. He was a she sometimes, sometimes a he and sometimes It bred Its self and one result was Little Miss Annie. Wow, amazing. Theres more to this fairy tale. They bred St. Patrick the black and white ragdoll to a white ragdoll and came up with a red smoke, Clark's George, St. Patrick was a male this time. This is just one example where the m SP is line bred to himself the F SP, the pedigree lies out so colorfully don't you think http://www.catpedigrees.com/cgi-bin/geneal24.pl?op=tree&index=1266&gens=5&db=Ragtime.dbw
The reds, including torties, reds etc can trace their ancestors back to some red persians, one who had a lot of input in the breed was Villaroyal Sweet Sunshine a red persian himilayan. You can look these names up on catpedigrees or pawpeds. It makes for some interesting reading. Try nailing anyone down on this miracles and they fluff it off as early pedigrees, you can't believe them. And that is what the breed is based on.
If you want a mink rag cat, go with the ragamuffins. I've seen some gorgeous sable and white and natural mink and you won't have to swallow all these fractured fairytales that pass as ragdoll history. Just my opinion.
My two minks are TICA regsiterd as RAGDOLLS aparentlly this is alowed. I have a 3 generation pedigree and I see no outcrosses. NOW maybe theres a few in the 4th or 5th generation that may say raggamuffin but I would have to obtain a 5th generation pedigree to find out and even if there was I would think this is nothing to be disapoitend about when they both breeds oringinated from each other.
How can they be half bred when it says mink Ragdoll? whether or not they were crossed to get this color many breeders are creating flame and lynx ragdolls which are outcrossed because there were NO flames No torties and no lynx ragdolls until now. There was only seal, blue, rare lilacs and rare chocolates now days 70% of lilac and chocolate ragdolls are crossed to balenise persian and himaylayin so I guess this is better ? NO I think not
I happen to see this posting on mink Ragdolls. In the begining Ann Baker the originator of the Ragdoll breed started DEVELOPING Ragdolls which are a definate part of the RAGGAMUFFIN without Ragdoll the Raggamuffin woudl never be its own breed today. When Ann bakers breeding helpers wanted to branch off they made there oqn breed called Raggamuffin using the Ragdoll lines other breeds may have been added later but certain old lines still exist that are older ragdoll lines that ARE the colors of MINK, SOLID AND SILVERS. Yes these are sometimes a seprate line now days but MANY Raggamuffin lines still exsist with Ragdoll AND breeders are breeding these old lines... people will say these are half breeds the "minks and solids" But I have spoke to over 30 breeders and they all say the same thing there are pedigree ragdolls that are mink in color and solid in color they go back since the 1970s and today they are being bred more into the tradional color ragdoll pedigrees. There is no difference in traits and looks and so on I own 2 minks and a traditional color and there is no difference at all in the quality or traits.