Internetsmokes.com review: No Product - No Refund 144

Yesterday, I called the number for TCL which is [protected]. I had to leave a message. Later in the day, a man called who identified himself as Spike Seneca.
He said he was in the shipping end of the business. He told me that he had a lot of calls to return. He added that Craig at Internetsmokes.com was getting tons of e-mails about this situation. I asked if there were a lot of people affected by the mess and he replied 'yes'. He did take my order numbers and my name. When I questioned exactly what the investigation was about, he stated it was about the CheckCare people. After questioning him as to why Internetsmokes is stating it is an investigation into smoke shops, he replied that CheckCare takes care of all smoke shop business. He, at one point said he maybe thought it was an investigation into those that hire the CheckCare business...I would say I never got a definite answer.
I asked Mr. Seneca if he had any idea of the complaints that were surfacing on the web. He did not but felt he should call Craig right away and let him know.
By the way, you can e-mail Craig : craig@internetsmokes.com (Please let us all know of any new info you get)

I asked about the shops who had received a 'stay' regarding the PACT act and he told me he thought a judge was going to rule today on their particular business.
Upon checking the Internetsmokes website, I see many links to news stories have been removed today. I asked if the business was to win a 'stay' on the new rules, would they send the product to those of us whose money they have and he seemed to think so but said from what they understand, there would only be four Post Offices where they could ship from and they did not even know where they are. However, it would be my guess that nothing has changed today that would give us real hope of seeing our product or refunds.

The money for an order I placed on June 20th was debited from my acct. on June 22nd. I was sent a tracking # for this order which stated it would be sent June 25th.
The money for an order I placed on June 21st was debited from my acct. on June 23rd. I was sent a tracking # for this order which stated it would be sent June 25th.

Notice the June 23rd date...one day after the 'investigation' began.

Needless to say, neither order arrived and nothing to this point has been resolved.

Let's continue to put the pressure on!

Just found the information below online... My question is does this mean they can oly fufill orders from those in New York?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NY judge extends hold on mail-order cigarette law
(AP) – 2 hours ago

BUFFALO, N.Y. — Seneca Indian Nation cigarette sellers remain free to fulfill orders by mail in New York while a federal judge in Buffalo considers whether a law banning the practice is constitutional.

U.S. District Judge Richard Arcara on Wednesday extended until July 30 a temporary restraining order that allows 141 members of the Seneca Free Trade Association and another Seneca businessman to continue to operate without having to comply with the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking — or PACT — Act.

The law that took effect June 29 bans using the U.S. Postal Service to ship cigarettes and requires sellers to comply with states' and municipalities' varying taxing laws.

The Senecas, who dominate the national mail-order cigarette business, say the law unfairly targets nation businesses.

I submitted an e-mail to Craig suggesting they post the whole story about the investigation and status of refunds on their website so that we all can have accurate and up-to-date information as it seems many have had conflicting info. I have not yet had a response. It makes me wonder that even though they know who has paid and not gotten orders they are not going to ship the orders (assuming the info about the judge's ruling is correct) until CheckCare releases the funds. This just does not seem right as they well know the funds have been debited from our accounts. This company needs to step up to the plate and do the right thing.

I hope others will ask the company to post the correct facts for everyone to see.

The judge made the ruling yesterday...(see article posted above). I would have thought this info. should already be on the website but instead, they removed all but one news link yesterday. Something is not right with all this! Now that they are free to ship the orders, they are still saying that the funds have to be released. They well know the funds have been debited from customer's accounts. I firmly believe they need to fill the orders and wait for their money as they made the choice to deal with CheckCare. I want to believe they will do the right thing but since they have not posted the judge's ruling etc etc...it seems they are hiding behind e-mails and not being forth-coming about what they really know or intend to do.

Again, we all need to insist they post accurate and up-to-date information on their website.

Also, when you send an e-mail, you now get an automated message that due to heavy e-mail traffic, they need up to two business days to reply. Wonder how long it will be before they no longer reply at all and how long it will be before the website and phone numbers disappear?

It would be a good idea to print all e-mail traffic from them and keep a folder with communications and your bank statement showing the date and amount of any debits in it.

When I spoke to the person in the shipping dept. on Wed. he told me that their funds atat CheckCare are frozen. However, he did not disagree when I stated I felt the company had other assets besides those tied up in the CheckCare business. Not everyone pays with e-check, thus my assumption is they would have assets with which to make refunds or do the shipping. When I e-mailed with the suggestion that credits might be given via methods such as credit to a credit card, money order or cashier's check, I received no response at all from that e-mail. I thought that spoke volumes. Also, one would think a company that has been in business for over ten years would have assets. My feeling is that if the hearing (supposed to be within 60 days from the June 22nd date, but the recording at the Assistant US Attorney's office says probably will be delayed) shows any wrong doing by the company, then forfeiture will happen. I think the company is taking care of itself in that they are not at this time making shipments to us or making refunds...thus, if they lose, we lose. I want to think they are doing the best they can but am doubtful about their willingness to go out on a limb and honor the orders or refunds in case they lose or are tied up in a very long investigation process. The recording at the Assistant US Attorney's office asks for the caller to leave their information to include name address etc if they would like further information. I think it is important to do this as it may well be the only contact we have that tells us the facts that we need to know regarding our chances of recovering our funds. I still think it odd that the website has nothing about the Judge's ruling on Wednesday, July 7th. If you Google, you can find articles etc detailing the ruling and yet this company who is affected in a positive way by it, says nothing.

Below is the address, phone number and fax number for Willaim Houser
It is my opinion a fax would be the way to go since the secretary that answers the phone will only transfer you to the recording when you call. If you choose to call, please listen to the entire recording and leave your contact info as requested at the end.

Note: My last two e-mails to Internetsmokes (TCL) have gone unanswered. I think this will be the pattern we will be seeing as it seems evident that TCL has no intention of shipping our orders even though the restraint from doing so has been lifted until July 30th.

Question? Does anyone know if there may be Postal fraud since most of us were provided a tracking # for USPS
I was told by the man in the shipping dept. that they generate shipping labels when they get the orders

Additonal Phone number: TCL [protected] (I did get a call back after leaving message)

Please post any other numbers you may have so all of us can follow-through with keeping up the pressure.

William S. Houser
Firm: US Attorney's Office, Middle District of Pennsylvania

Address: Federal Building
Suite 309
Washington & Lindon Sts.
Scranton, PA 18501

Phone: [protected]

Fax: [protected]

It seems evident that TCL still refuses to post on their website the facts of this situation. I know that I have written them about this issue...and got no response.
I believe others have probably done the same. They need to be pressured to post accurate and up-to-date information on their site as they seem to be hiding behind various excuses and especially now that the shipping can resume.

I tried faxing Houser's office and the fax machine would not answer. I will mail him a letter. Perhaps we will get an answer from his office that might be more forthcoming than anything we are getting from TLC. I agree with the above poster that the company surely has more funds than those tied up at CheckCare...

When I called, I spoke with the secretary and I asked if I could speak with Mr. Houser and she said that would not be possible. Please tell us what questions you asked and what his response was. Thanks

Just saw the text below on the website...notice, it does not say anything about an investigation...I wrote to Mr. Houser today asking he release enough funds for refunds. I doubt I will get an answer but will keep trying to get some resolution.

Due to issues with our echeck processor, we are not accepting online orders.

Thanks so much for the information relating to your conversation with Mr. Houser. I still think that TCL should fill our orders and they should feel comfortable doing so if they were not doing anything illegal as they would know they are going to get their money from CheckCare. If they have been doing something illegal, it should be their money that is forfeited, not ours. For that reason, they need to ship these orders now as the new deadline is July 30th. They still have not put on their website the real truth.

LOOK AT THIS...THEY ARE NOW ACCEPTING ORDERS BY MAIL AND WANT CUSTOMERS TO SEND EITHER CHECK OR MONEY ORDER WITH THEIR ORDER...This proves they are able to ship due to Judge's order. Notice the date of July 26th. This company has no shortage of product...they are just not
taking care of their long-time customers that have supported them. Below is cut and pasted from their website.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

ORDERS SHIPPED BY USPS PRIORITY MAIL
Mailing Instructions:

Send order form with payment to:

TCL Enterprises

12723 Route 438

Irving, NY 14081

Make payment payable to: TCL Enterprises Your Personal Check or Money Order Welcome

Mail Orders Received: Delivered in 2 to 5 Business Days!

Note: Your delivery time may vary, depending on stock on hand or backorders. Please Note: Days does means business days. Order early please!
Thank You For Your Order!
All Products are Sold and Shipped by TCL Enterprises

Native American Family Owned & Operated Business.

"If you like our service, please tell your family and friends about us!"

Mail ordereds should be postmarked by July 26, 2010 or they may have to be returned
__________________________________________________________________________

Orders accepted from USA Customers Only - We do not ship to Kanasa.

mav214 I totally agree with you. My last two e-mails to them have gone unanswered. I would not be surprised if they pull their website down as soon as their extention for shipping is over. They own the Three Feathers business also. Have you called them? If so, please share a good number so we can all call them often.
Thanks.

I tried to call the number published on their website [protected]) and they have now have it as a fax line. There is a message that all inquiries about orders MUST be done by e-mail. How convenient, they will not answer the phone. I wonder if their website will disappear as soon as the shipping deadline has passed?

Below I am putting a couple of e-mails I got from them after I inquired about my missing orders. They first referred me to the number for Houser's office. After calling the office for Houser, I contacted the company to let them know what the recording said...you might find their replies amazing...I later suggested they call the number so they actually knew what it said...of course, they never replied to that suggestion or one I made that they need to post accurate and up-to-date information of their website.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both of these were sent to me on July 2nd

Dear XXXX,
We had no information about a recording nor forfeiture of funds, last thing we knew was that the number was for his office. I will bring this to the attention of my supervisor.

Sincerely,
Will Welch
TCL Enterprises

Dear XXXX,
I brought this to the attention of my supervisor and the majority of this information is new to us. There really is nothing more I can tell you. Because Mr. Houser froze the accounts with the funds in them and CheckCare transactions are restricted our hands are tied. However, as soon as we can issue your refund we will.

Sincerely,
Will Welch
TCL Enterprises

I noticed yesterday that this website was having problems so I printed all the comments...just in case entries disappeared. Others may want to do the same as there is some good information in many of the posts on this thread.

I think it will be interesting to see what we are told to do if indeed TCL is involved in illegal activity involving the bank in KY. as this will mean a forfeiture of all our funds. Because TCL will not send the orders they know we have payed for even though they can still ship (per the judge's ruling on 7/7), I have no faith they will ever do so unless the funds are released from CheckCare which will not happen if they are part of the illegal activity. They only seem interested in selling more product via check and money order prior to the new cut off for shipping date of 7/30. What I think they are missing is the fact that if the PACT act should be reversed, how many would ever trust this company again?!

In my letter (sent by mail) to Mr. Houser, I underlined the plea that he release funds only for the purpose of refunds to those of us who have done nothing wrong.
I will post any reply I may receive from his office.

Please be sure to call his office and leave your contact info. at the end of the recording as this will probably be the only way you will ever know what to expect with this situation. His number is [protected] Extention 244.

Since the phone number for TCL has now been turned into a fax number, I will be sending a fax to them today. I will print a copy of the fax for my records. I will post any reply I might get. Please join me in continuing to put pressure on these people in every way possible. Please post information on how to file complaint with the Better Business Bureau regarding this situation. The number that is now a fax # for TCL is [protected]. By the way, I will include in my fax the observation by many of us that they have no shortage of product since they continue to accept orders by mail.

The following fax was sent to [protected] successfully this morning ( 7/19/2010) at 11:32 EST/8:32 PST

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again I contact you to ask for my orders to be send or a refund be issued. I am well aware of the situation regarding the frozen CheckCare funds. However, you are continuing to accept orders via mail which tells me that you have plenty of product.

According to Attorney Houser's office, if TCL has not been involved in any illegal activity in regards to the Kentucky bank situation involving tax monies, you will have funds released. If you truly have done nothing illegal, you should feel comfortable honoring the orders or making refunds. Your refusal to do so implies you may feel you have been involved in illegal activity.

There is a growing audience of your former customers that are becoming very active in the efforts to encourage you to do the right thing. From reading the many complaints posted on the web regarding your company, it amazes me that most have been long-time customers such as myself. We feel that you are not being loyal to those of us who have supported your business.

As the July 30th deadline approacehs, the right thing to do would be to ship the product we have payed for. Since you obviously have product to fill orders coming into you by mail, you have product to fill orders for those who are left without product or refunds.

I again encourage you to post accuracte and up-to-date information on your website. I recently read a post from one of your customers that you will not do this as you do ot want to anger the Feds. You should not have a fear of posting such or angering the Feds unless you are covering up something illegal. If you have been engaged in illegal activity, it certainly would speak better on your behalf to take care of your customers so that the complaints from that sector go away.

Should the PACT Act restrictions be lifted for your type of business, please consider that you will NOT have the customers that are being mistreated now. How could we ever trust you again? This could be fixed if you would honor the orders or use whatever non-frozen assets you have to issue refunds.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I signed the fax with my name, order numbers and amounts
I included my address and phone number.

Could everyone that makes contact with various offices/people please let us all know? I think it would be beneficial if various ones make contacts instead of only one or two of us so that it becomes evident how widespread the problem is. If anyone would like to copy my fax and send it forward, please feel free to do so and just sign your own name. The fax that I sent yesterday is a few posts above this one.

Let's start compiling here what we have done. I would be glad to start a list and post it each day.
When posting something you want me to add to the list...please put the words FOR THE LIST at the beginning of your post.

The phone number [protected]) is the number for the shipping people. I left a message at that number and actually got a call back. This was several days ago. From what I understood from the man who called back was that he works out of his garage. He identified himself as Spike Seneca. I know that is kinda amusing but he swore that was his real name. He sounded like an older gentleman. After a lengthy conversation with him he said he needed to call Craig right away as they had no idea people were writing complaints on the internet. That too seemed amusing to me as what did they expect?

Thanks, Still_Hopeful for the information.

I just sent a copy of my fax from yesterday (7/19) to The Seneca Free Trade Association [protected])
It said it was successfully sent at 10:57AM EST/7:57 AM PDT

Could someone call the Seneca Nation of Indians? The number that Still_Hopeful has provided for that office is [protected]

Contact List
The following names, numbers and addresses may be useful to those who want to make contacts
Please add to this list if you have additonal information

TCL Enterprises/Three Feathers/Big Buffal0
12723 Route 438
Irving, New York 14081
orders@internetsmokes.com
craig@internetsmokes.com
Fax # [protected] (was a phone line...now is fax only
[protected] (leave message...might get return call from shipping)

US Attorney William S. Houser
Washington and Lindon Streets
Suite 309
Scranton, PA 18501
[protected] Ext. 244 (be sure to leave your contact info)

BBB of Upstate New York
WWW: http://upstateny.bbb.org
Email: geninquiries@upstatenybbb.org
Phone: [protected]
Fax: [protected]
100 Bryant Woods South
Amherst NY 14228

______________Thanks to Still_Hopeful for the contact info. below_______________

Seneca Free Trade Association
[protected]
[protected] FAX

Seneca Nation of Indians
[protected]

Seneca Nation of Indians Tribal Administration
[protected]

Governor of Kentucky (where bank with seized funds is located)
Governor Steve Beshear
700 Capitol Avenue
Suite 100
Frankfort, KY 40601
[protected]
[protected] FAX
http://governor.ky.gov/contact/contact.htm

CheckCare
Jennifer Ulam
National Account Representative
Technical Support
[protected] ext. 229
[protected] FAX
jennifer.ulam@checkcare.com

I noticed that the Kansas reference is on the current order form for mail-in orders which is found on their website. However, I do not remember it being on the online order form. I agree that your money beat the seizure and should have been refunded right away!

Great fax. Please let us all know if you get any sort of reply. When I have asked the same question regarding my order on June 21st and funds debited on the 23rd, they have NOT answered. I have e-mailed the question to them more than once and they just ignore it. Let's hope you will hear something!

I found the post below on the complaintboards thread regarding Three Feathers..also known as TCL and Big Buffalo.
It is the first time I have seen an explanation of what the tax issue might be which caused the funds to be frozen at the bank in Kentucky. Hope the poster does not mind having their post shared with those of us on this thread.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

1 hr 25 mins ago by shag1082

I have been told, the reason internet smokes' CheckCare Account has been frozen is because they didn't pay Federal Taxes on cigarettes they sold to us! If you will remember, when the Federal Government increased taxes on Cigarettes at 50 cents a pack, internet smokes added $6.00 per carton to cover the increase in Federal Taxes, so they said! Also, on their web-site, they stated, all taxes have been paid. What I don't understand, why is Attorney General Houser holding our honest money, instead of forcing the crooks at internet smokes to pay the Federal Government the taxes we PAID to them? At this point, I don't know which is the biggest crook, internet smokes or Attorney General Houser.

I do not have an e-mail for his office but if you call the number, a live person will answer (during office hrs) and you can ask for an e-mail address.
[protected] Ext. 244. I sent a fax but have had no response from Houser's office. I sent a fax to TCL and just as I expected, no reply, and I sent one to the Seneca Free Trade Association and again, no reply.

Be sure to call Atty. Houser's office and leave your contact info. at the end of recording. He is the US attorney from Scranto, PA that froze the funds.
[protected] Ext 244 This may be the only source of information for us as this thing takes what could be a very very long time to come to a conclusion.
Our best hope is that TCL did not participate in illegal activity as if they did, we will likely forfeit our funds. TCL should honor the orders or make the refunds immediately but it is proven that they will not. They can still ship thru July 30th but they have no intention of honoring our orders and we will be hung out to dry if they are proven to be involved in illegal stuff.

Here is a little proof that they are still shipping. A friend of mine tested them by placing an order by mail. This morning the shipping confirmation arrived via e-mail. Now...we will have to wait and see if the product actually arrives. If it does, I will post as soon as it arrives. Just thought you might find it interesting that we have some sort of proof to back up what we have been saying...that being that they are still shipping...just not to those of us whose money they are keeping :( Notice the SHIPPING DATE on the notice below. Note: there is an actual delivery confirmation # which I have taken out for privacy for my friend
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dear XXX:

Below is the Delivery Confirmation number you need to determine the delivery status of your package.

Delivery Confirmation Number XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Your package is scheduled for shipment on 07/27/2010.

This email was automatically generated by the US Postal Service (www.usps.com) at the shipper's request. Any reply to this email will not be received by the USPS or shipper. The USPS has not collected or retained any personal information that would identify you or your purchase from this email.

Thank you, TCL ENTERPRISES mailto:Patches438@aol.com

Interesting that they say they operate with zero inventory as when I left a message and actually got a call back from their shipping guy, he told me his garage was full of inventory and he hoped the judge would allow them to resume shipping that week. The number I called and got a return call from was [protected]. I spoke with the man referenced above in early July. He identified himself as Spike Seneca (LOL..I know that is amusing but he swore that was his name.

I guess what they say about the money not being in their possession is true in that it is not in their actual hands...however, if you read the earlier responses they sent out, they said that there was an investigation into all smoke shops. They did not say anything about CheckCare being under investigation. This has to do with some tax monies maybe not being paid as I understand it. And, it appears to be the truth that if they are involved in illegal activity, monies that are frozen will be forfeited.
They well know this and in my opinion are not going to do one thing for their customers as they probably figure they are going to lose ...which would imply they might believe they have been involved in illegal stuff. Thus, they will let us be the ones who lose our money...they are only coming up with lame excuses to protect themselves.

Isn't this amazing? I posted that a friend of mine tested what TCL was doing by ordering cigarettes this past week and sending them a personal check.
I checked the USPS tracking number this evening and found the cigarettes are actually on their way. More proof that they have product and are willing to ship to anyone who will give them direct money such as a check or money order. They still continue to REFUSE to honor the orders of us that paid by e-check and REFUSE to send our refunds. TCL is being dishonest with us and continues to grab every dollar they can. Below I will post the actual USPS tracking info on my friend's order...I will remove actual tracking # for privacy.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Label/Receipt Number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Class: Priority Mail®
Service(s): Delivery Confirmation™
Status: Processed through Sort Facility

Your item was processed through and left our ROCHESTER, NY 14606 facility on July 27, 2010. The item is currently in transit to the destination. Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. Please check again later.

Detailed Results:

Processed through Sort Facility, July 27, 2010, 6:36 pm, ROCHESTER, NY 14606
Acceptance, July 27, 2010, 1:10 pm, SILVER CREEK, NY 14136
Electronic Shipping Info Received, July 27, 2010

I left my contact information on the recording at Houser's office and I sent him a letter by mail. I have had NO response.

Product Delivered...I have written on this thread before about a friend of mine sending TCL a personal check and an order to test what they are now doing.
Well...they seem to be delivering product paid for by money order or personal check. They are still refusing to honor the orders or make refunds for those of us who paid by e-check. This goes to prove there is NO shortage of product and speaks for itself when it comes to the ethics of TCL. Their website has not been recently updated and it only states that if your order is postmarked after July 26th, it may have to be returned. Does anyone know if they got another extention from the judge to allow them to ship after July 30th ? Wonder why they would leave their order form online at this late date unless they want to grab some more money they can keep and not refund?

Label/Receipt Number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Class: Priority Mail®
Service(s): Delivery Confirmation™
Status: Delivered

Your item was delivered at 8:06 AM on July 29, 2010 in XXXXXXXX, TX (followed by zip code)

Detailed Results:

Delivered, July 29, 2010, 8:06 am, XXXXXXXX, TX (ollowed by zip code)
Arrival at Post Office, July 29, 2010, 8:05 am, XXXXXXXX, TX (ollowed by zip code)
Processed through Sort Facility, July 27, 2010, 6:36 pm, ROCHESTER, NY 14606
Acceptance, July 27, 2010, 1:10 pm, SILVER CREEK, NY 14136
Electronic Shipping Info Received, July 27, 2010

It is evident now that our orders will not be honored as the judge today upheld the ban on using USPS to ship cigarettes. I will put a paragraph from the article below. Or, you can go to the TCL website and click on the link to read the entore article. TCL will not have a choice now as to whether they honor our orders, as they can't unlike they could have prior to the July 30th shipping date set forth by the judge earlier this month. Again, TCL has left their loyal customers to fend for themselves as they have done absolutely nothing to help with this situation.
*******************************************************************************************************************************************************

From: BuffaloNews.com
Updated: July 30, 2010, 11:59 PM

A judge upheld the federal government's right to ban the mailing of cigarettes by Seneca Nation businesses Friday, but rejected for the time being the collection of taxes on those cigarettes.

jadedthrill, here is the address you asked for, followed by others you may find useful

Contact List
The following names, numbers and addresses may be useful to those who want to make contacts.
Please add to this list if you have additonal information

♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦

US Attorney William S. Houser
Washington and Lindon Streets
Suite 309
Scranton, PA 18501
[protected] Ext. 244 (be sure to leave your contact info)

TCL Enterprises/Three Feathers/Big Buffal0
12723 Route 438
Irving, New York 14081
orders@internetsmokes.com
craig@internetsmokes.com
Fax # [protected] (was a phone line...now is fax only
[protected] (leave message...might get return call from shipping)

Better Business Bureau of Upstate New York
WWW: http://upstateny.bbb.org
Email: geninquiries@upstatenybbb.org
Phone: [protected]
Fax: [protected]
100 Bryant Woods South
Amherst NY 14228

Seneca Free Trade Association
[protected]
[protected] FAX

Seneca Nation of Indians
[protected]

Seneca Nation of Indians Tribal Administration
[protected]

Governor of Kentucky (where bank with seized funds is located)
Governor Steve Beshear
700 Capitol Avenue
Suite 100
Frankfort, KY 40601
[protected]
[protected] FAX
http://governor.ky.gov/contact/contact.htm

CheckCare
Jennifer Ulam
National Account Representative
Technical Support
[protected] ext. 229
[protected] FAX
jennifer.ulam@checkcare.com

I spoke with my Credit Union this morning. Yes, there are forms (very simple to complete) to fill out. What I was told was that unless it is something having to do with the Feds, it is a simple procedure. However, the word Feds causes me concern as we all know that Atty. Houser is a US attorney...
Also, on the forms I have been sent via e-mail, the customer has to select a reason for the debit to have been unauthorized. Below is a copy of the entire form.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Written Statement Under Penalty of Perjury
(Unauthorized ACH Form)

• This form is used to return an ACH payment a member is claiming as unauthorized.
• The form must be filled out completely.
• An ACH transaction can only be disputed within 60 days of the original transaction date. Anything past the 60 days the member has to dispute with the company.
• The form should also be accompanied by a stop payment if the member did not authorize the transaction. This will prevent any future charges for 6 months. The member will not be charged a XXXX fee for the stop payment if they did not authorize the transaction.
• When filling out the form at a branch, please fax to the Accounting Dept. for processing, and send the original in interoffice mail.
• Any questions, please call the Accounting Dept for clarification.
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

1. Account / Transaction Information:
Name:
Account Number:
Amount of Debit:
Date of Debit:
The Party Debiting the Account:
( Person or Company)
2. Statement:
I, (the undersigned) hereby attest that (i) I have reviewed the circumstances of the above electronic (ACH) debit to my account, (ii) the debit was not authorized, and (iii) the following, to the best of my ability to identify, is the reason for this conclusion:

I did not authorize the party listed above to debit my account.
I revoked the authorization I had given to the party to debit my account before the debit was initiated.
My account was debited before the date I authorized.
My account was debited for an amount different than I authorized.
My check was improperly processed electronically.
Other (Must Specify):

3. Signature:
I am an authorized signer, or otherwise have authority to act, on the account identified in this statement. I attest that the debt above was not originated with fraudulent intent by me or any person acting in concert with me.
I have read this statement in its entirety and attest that the information provided on this statement is true and correct.
Signature:
Date:

For anyone who plans to file paperwork at their bank/credit union about the e-check situation, please beware that there may be a 60 day time frame in which you can do so. This would mean it must be done within 60 days of the debit from your account.
I found this to be true when I completed my paperwork. I was within the 60 day time limit but had I waited until late in this month, I would not have been.

chicklady...I checked : My check was improperly processed electronically and Other.

The reason I checked that the check was improperly processed is that the first debit was done prior to the investigation and the second debit was done after the investigation began and neither of the debits seem to have shown up at TCL, according to them. I have two debits with TCL...therefore had to fill out a form for each.

I wrote as an explanation: My account was debited on___date___ . TCL Enterprises say they never received the funds and have not honored my order and refuse to issue a refund. The processor of the ECheck (ACH Check) was CheckCare.

mav214

I hope that you will provide the Better Business Bureau with a copy of any e-mails that you have received fr0m Will Welch regarding your orders so that they can see his denial of being involved with the company your ordered from is a lie.

Also, please let us all know about any/all forms your bank has you fill out just in case there is more than one way to approach this.
The one I completed and faxed to my Credit Union was not called an Affidavit of Fraud but was titled Written Statement of Unauthorized Debit (ACH).

I will look forward to any updates

Diane J

I believe what you filled out today at the bank was the same form that I filled out at mine. It is only my opinion that these forms will not get our money returned but at least it is a step we need to take. I am keeping copies of each letter/fax/e-mail that I have written and of course, copies of all of the e-mails I have received regarding this matter from TCL.

Did you call Atty. Houser's office and leave your contact information at the end of the recording?

The only positive thing I can find is that TCL has not taken down their website yet. I fully expect at some point, the website, and all e-mail addresses for them will disappear. I am taking a picture of their page because it lists a refund as a reason to contact them.

The first hearing on the frozen monies is supposed to be no later than Aug. 22nd but according to the recording at Houser's office, this could be postponed.

Diane J

I did not mean to imply the TCL website for ordering was still open. I just meant to say that you can still access their page which still has the link for e-mailing them. I believe that too will soon disappear along with all means of contacting them.

As far as I know, no one has heard anything back from Houser's office. I sent a written letter, and had no response from it.
I also sent a fax to the Seneca Free Trade Association and have had no reply. After TCL stopped replying to my e-mails, I sent them a lengthy fax and again, no response. The only response I have gotten from anyone I have contacted was a return phone call to me from a man who claimed he was in the shipping end of the business.

When I filed the forms with my credit union regarding the e-checks, I was told to watch my statement. This morning I checked online and found they had issued a provisional credit ( I believe the PROV stands for provisional)...will be interesting to see what happens now. I had two debits, thus the two credits. I would expect a provisional credit could be reversed...will be watching. As of right now, the amounts in question have been deposited into my account.

08/05/2010 PROV CR REV TCL ENTERPR 100622 UNAUTHORIZED $ xxx.00
08/05/2010 PROV CR REV TCL ENTERPRI 100621 UNAUTHORIZED $ xxx.00

PLEASE, everyone that has filled out the forms at their bank...watch your balance and let us all know if you have received any credit.
Like I wrote above, I found the two below credited to my account...however, I will be watching daily to see if the credits are reversed.
I cut and pasted the two below so this is exactly how they look on my online statement with the exception of the amounts...which I took out.

08/05/2010 PROV CR REV TCL ENTERPR 100622 UNAUTHORIZED $ xxx.00
08/05/2010 PROV CR REV TCL ENTERPRI 100621 UNAUTHORIZED $ xxx.00

I checked my records and the day I faxed the completed forms back to my credit union was Aug. 5th. They issued the credits that same day. I just checked about five min. ago and the credits are still there. As I have said before, I will be watching as it would not surprise me if they are reversed due to the feds.

svikes84...Please keep us posted on this. I sincerely hope more will do what we have done. I am like you in that I am happy but scared to hold my breath...bet I check my online statement a lot of times per day for quite a while :)

Unauthorized ACH Transaction(s) (R10) or ACH Authorization Revoked (R07)

This is what the R10 refers to. I believe these to be standard codes for the forms above.

Just checked again and my credits still show in my checking account. Have written an e-mail to the accounting dept. at my credit union to ask if the credits can be reversed. Has anyone else gotten their bank or credit union to add the amounts debited to TCL added back in your account. Please keep us all posted.

I am copying and pasting the reply below that I received after asking my Credit Union if the credits they have given me for the ACH debits to TCL can be reversed. Thought some might find the reply interesting.

__________________________________________________

These are the credits that have appeared on my statement after I filed out the forms at my Credit Union:

08/05/2010 PROV CR REV TCL ENTERPR 100622 UNAUTHORIZED $ xxx.00
08/05/2010 PROV CR REV TCL ENTERPRI 100621 UNAUTHORIZED $ xxx.00

Reply I received today after asking questions via e-mail to my credit union:

Dear XXXX,

Most people are unaware of it, but Financial Institutions use provisional credit in many different situations. “prov cr” does not necessarily mean temporary credit. It means we are extending your credit to you early, ‘provided’ everything goes as smoothly as we believe it will. A credit for a disputed charge is reversible anyway, so XXX (name of credit union) does not like to lead anyone to thinking otherwise, no matter how small the chance is.

Provisional credit is a good thing. If XXXX did not think XXX (name of credit union) was going to get the money back, she would not have given provisional credit and would have made you wait until XXX (name of credit union) received the money before putting it in your account.

Do I think that for any reason your credit could be reversed? Technically, it can. I do, however, think it would be highly unlikely and you would certainly be hearing from XXXX if something like that was going to happen.

The words “prov cr” is the description of the credit that XXX has placed into your account. We cannot change an entry in somebody’s account as it is what will show on your statements and statements are unchangeable for any reason. If you never hear from XXXX, life goes on, and that credit is just another entry into your account like any other deposit.

GREAT news for those that have pursued the bank route for settling these debits. Please keep everyone posted on anything new and keep watching to see if any of the credits are reversed. Because the feds are involved, this would not surprise me.

Also, I know my credit union has a 60 day window from the time of the debit to contest such. I would believe that 60 day period will be up for most very soon.

dianedmk

The money should be in a bank in Lexington, KY. Maybe your bank can re-check what they told you.
The investigation by Atty. Houser's office started on another matter at that bank and then went on to include the smoke shops.
When you listen to the recording at Houser's office, it states the location of the bank where the monies are.

I have a friend who went to his bank and they told him they had no clue as to the form he needed. Amazing!

Please pursue getting your bank to find out where the money really is and show you proof of what their investigation reveals.

My credits were issued on Aug. 5th and as of this evening, Aug. 13th, they are still there...Here's hoping none of these get reversed.
I sincerely hope that everyone is taking the steps through their banking institution to get credit.

Note: I was not charged a fee by my credit union. However, if you wish to put a stop payment on any further debits by TCL, your bank/credit union will likely charge a fee for doing so. And, I have been told that putting a stop payment on further debits by TCL will not prevent a reversal of the credits they have given me should there be a problem getting the funds back. So, unless you plan to put a stop payment on further debits by TCL, hopefully there will not be a fee.

I agree mav214, this troll needs to go to another board as they totally do not even understand what they are writing about.
It is amazing what some will do to upset others.

saludevil, I am so sorry to hear about the reversal of your credit. I fully expect more of us will see the same. A friend of mine went to his bank yesterday and was met with confusion about what forms were even needed. Once a form was completed, the lady in charge of accounting looked at him and said "now, how do we get our money back and who do we go after?". He left his bank with a feeling that the credit they gave him will never be permanent as he got the idea the bank did not even know what to do. Again, I am sad to hear your news :(

mav214...Yes, it is a small town but he went to one of the larger branches yesterday as he was met with confusion when he tried at his smaller branch location last week. Amazing isn't it?

While shopping for cigarettes online, I never found one place that took credit cards so I. like others was left with an e-check as the only way to pay for these type products.

Has anyone listened to the recording at Houser's office lately? I wonder if there is any new info regarding the first hearing which was to be no later than 60 days after the investigation began (June 22)?

My credit was issued Aug. 5th and is still there as of this AM. Wonder how long it will continue to be there?

saludevil...It is my understanding that the bank involved is in Kentucky. I believe it is going to be in Lexington, KY.

The recording at Houser's office refers to a KY bank. You might want to listen to the recording and see exactly what it says as it has been quite a while since I listened to it. Some pages back in this thread is a contact number for CheckCare. I would also suggest calling them for the info. Please keep us updated.

chicklady

I believe what happened was that Houser, an Assistant US Attorney was doing an investigation at the KY bank on another matter and may have stumbled into something he perceived to be wrong having to do with the 'smoke shop' funds.

William S. Houser
Firm: US Attorney's Office, Middle District of Pennsylvania

Address: Federal Building
Suite 309
Washington & Lindon Sts.
Scranton, PA 18501

Phone: [protected]

Fax: [protected]

Thanks mav214 for the update. So far, my credits at my credit union are still there. Let's hope this continues to be the case.
Thank you for pursuing the BBB complaint. Will Welch is despicable as are the smoke shops he is associated with!

Does anyone besides me find their reason for closing their site is their problems with CheckCare?
I find it laughable that they don't just tell the truth...they cannot anymore legally ship cigarettes in the mail...
I don't think these people are willing tell the truth about anything, to include where the monies are. Below is copied and pasted from their site.
I think they have no clue that some monies have been refunded by banks/credit unions. I continue to check my account online almost daily as nothing would surprise me. My money has been back in my account since Aug. 5th. So far, so good.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

THIS SITE IS OWNED AND MANAGED BY TCL ENTERPRISES, INC.

- A NATIVE AMERICAN FAMILY OWNED AND OPERATED COMPANY -

Our site is currently closed.

Due to issues with our echeck processor, we are not accepting orders.

chicklady, Can you share what sites are shipping and do you know if it is cost effective to order from them? Thanks!

Thanks so much chicklady!

I just did a cost comparison from Internetsmokes.com (who I do not think any of us would order from again) and the buydiscountcigarettes.com for the Seneca cigarettes. They are $26.99 a carton and it costs $20 to ship the max. of 12 cartons.
That would be a total of $28.66 a carton. I paid $23.70 inc. shipping from Internetsmokes.com. Considering the cost in the stores, guess the $28.66 (inc. shipping) a carton is pretty good.

Yes, they are shipping to my area. I smoke menthol so I do not know about making those.
I am going to call buydiscountcigarettes tomorrow and ask who does their e-checks and what carrier they are using :)

I gathered the following information from buydiscountcigarettes.com this morning by calling them.

Their e-check processor is e-bank. However, this is the good news, they accept VISA.

The private carrier is NAPAREX which stands for National Parcel Express. You can find them at NAPAREX.com

I was told that it will take a little longer to receive orders and we should allow 2-4 weeks depending where they are being delivered.

The order goes to your front door

There is a limit of 12 cartons per order unless you live in NY and the limit is 4 cartons for that state

You can order as many times as you want

You can order online or call them to order. Their number is [protected]

They have an offer that if you are an existing customer and refer a new customer, you get a $10 credit

Note: I used to order from this company before switching to Internetsmokes.com due to lower prices.
I never had a problem with any of my orders when I used them

They have an offer that if you are an existing customer and refer a new customer, you get a $10 credit

Thanks chicklady for sharing the information about sources that will ship cigarettes. I am not talented enough to roll my own so I will have to resort to ordering. Again, Thanks!

I received a call from the office handling all of this early in Dec. after I had returned my forms and let them know my Credit Union had credited the money back to my account in August. She told me they had confiscated over six million dollars and it would take years to get it all resolved. I had the impression that not all of that money was from individual buyers like you and me. Probably a lot of retailer money too? Anyway, I asked what their position was going to be regarding reporting to the states the prior purchases and she said that would be done at some point. She also stated most of the money confiscated came from the states of New York and New Jersey.

I learned today that BuyDiscountCigarettes was raided and all their records were gotten. I got a bill from CA for taxes on cigarettes purchased from this site for March-August 2008. From what I was able to find out by talking to those in charge of the collection of taxes in CA was that there is still litigation pending regarding other sites reporting their sales. The statue of limitation in CA is 8 years. BuyDiscountCigarettes would not comply in any way so thus, the raid. I have paid the taxes I owed but submitted a request any interest be waived. I was told that if you satisfy the tax amount, it is likely the interst will be waived. Also learned that CA will establish a payment plan for those who cannot pay the amount they are billed for.