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This is a letter we sent to Permaseal which details our complaints. Thank you.
June 11, 2008
210 S. Nolton Ave.
Willow Springs, IL 60480
Roy Spencer
President
Permaseal Basement Systems
513 Rogers St.
Downers Grove, IL 60515
Re: Fraudulent and unlawful business practices by Permaseal in the installation of waterproofing system on 4/16/08
Notice: This letter was written before I found out that you refused to pay the plumbing bill. Why you think we would lie about this leak is beyond me. I have included the response that I sent to the BBB regarding that claim. I am so sorry it has come to this, because I have nothing against your system or the crew who installed it.
June 10, 2008
Dear Mr. Spencer,
I think you should know that we have filed a complaint with the Illinois Attorney General’s office regarding fraudulent and unlawful business practices by Permaseal Waterproofing. The complaint lists Bill Nicholson as the employee perpetrating the fraud.
As a Permaseal Estimator, Mr. Nicholson had us unnecessarily spend $5200. to replace an entire already-existing Permaseal waterproofing system when there was only one area that was leaking. The Estimator told us we had clay drain tiles and that it was likely impossible to find clay tiles to replace the clogged one. He said that, in fact, no one was even making clay drain tiles any more. Both these facts are untrue. Clay drain tiles are still made and repairs can be made. See the web sites below.
We should have been suspicious from the very beginning. We told him that Permaseal installed the system we presently had. He vehemently denied that Permaseal could have installed it, until I showed him the original bill.
On top of this we found out, after our entire basement perimeter had been trenched, that the drain tiles that were taken out were, in fact, not even made of clay!, as Mr. Nicholson told us they were. When I mentioned this to a member of the installation crew, Spencer (are you this Spencer?), he said that Mr. Nicholson did not list the drain tiles as being made of clay. My son and the Willow Springs Building Superintendent both are aware of the fact that Mr. Nicholson told us we had clay tiles.
Another lie Mr. Nicholson told us was that we had to install an additional sump pump because the water needed to go out to the back yard because of the codes. I said I did not understand this because we were replacing an already-existing system, not installing a new one. He insisted that we were installing a new system and that as soon as he goes for a permit the Building Superintendent will refuse to give him a permit if he does not put the drain out to the back yard. I spoke with the Building Superintendent and he told me that whatever law was in effect when the first system was first installed would be in effect now. We would be grandfathered-in. The biggest lie here is that a Building Permit was never even applied for.
On top of all this, after the crew left, my husband discovered a leak in the basement sink drain. Right from the start, before installation began, we asked if that drain needed to be disconnected and were told it was not necessary. Your “Inspector” said that if we had any trouble, to be sure to call him, which we did. This was on Friday and he said he would get back to us the next day. We did not hear from him, so we let things slide over the weekend. He never returned our call anyhow. In fact, no one ever returned our calls. Finally, my husband said someone called from your Customer Service Department and said Permaseal would not pay for any repairs to the pipe because we had no proof that Permaseal was responsible. How ridiculous!
That was absolutely the last straw. It was after this incident that we decided to take action. I’m sure you have heard from the Better Business Bureau by now.
P.S. Subsequent to this letter and a BBB complaint, we were sent $250. for the plumbing repairs. They still admit no responsibility for anything. Money is not our primary concern. We just don’t want anyone else to be fooled by this company. Consumer Beware!
Virginia and Ralph Kriho
www.bestplumbingheating.com/pumps.html The vast majority of blocked drain-tile repairs calls for the excavation and replacement of the clogged section.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Home-Improvement-General-688/Interior-drain-tile-clogged.htm Call a basement waterproofing company or foundation contractor and ask them to dig up the clogged portion of the perimeter drain and replace it.
www.kcmaster.com/free/home-repair.htm#Drain Clay or iron tile systems may be "snaked" or "rooted" out to remove clogging if access is available.
www.schlatters-inc.com
Schlatters, Inc
16179 W 500 S
Francesville, IN [protected]
Products Description:
Manufactures clay drain tile; wholesales agricultural machinery & equipment; machine shop, jobbing & repair services; wholesales general construction machinery & equipment
Haviland
100 W. Main St.
Haviland, OH 45851
Product Description:
Manufactures clay drain tile
June 11, 2008
Better Business Bureau
Attention: Diana Mendez
Re: Complaint # [protected]
Dear Ms Mendez,
Thank you for your patience on the phone this morning. Needless to say, I was quite upset with the response from Permaseal. I would like this case reopened.
If what the company alleges i. e., that the leak was already present before they started work, why is it no one mentioned this fact to us? I can’t believe they would proceed without notifying us of the problem, lest (as has happened) they be accused of making the leak.
The response the crew received from my husband regarding reading of the contract may well be true, but that was not my response. I read the contract thoroughly and I asked the crew if the drain should be disconnected. I was assured that would not be necessary, because that they could go under it. At the time of this discussion, we all (myself, my husband and someone from the crew) were standing there looking at the drain at the same time and there was absolutely no leak.
This company, specifically Mr. Bill Nicholson, who calls himself the Estimator, lied to us from the very beginning. He told us repairs could not be made because we had clay tiles and no one was making clay tiles any more. Even though there was only one leak in the whole system (which was a Permaseal system), he said we had to get a whole new system installed at a cost of over $5, 000. Everything Mr. Nicholson told us was a lie. Because we are seniors, he must have thought we were easy marks.
I cannot let this person, as a representative of Permaseal, get away with this. For a further explanation of the circumstances involved in the waterproofing installation, see below for a letter I was going to send today to Permaseal. This was before I found out their response to the plumbing issue.
I think I have a very good case as far as the plumbing issue is concerned. Why didn’t they tell us they found a leak? Does it make sense not to, when they could be blamed for it?
Permaseal took near $4000 from me to seal a deck that destroyed it. BBB is doing nothing. They even falsified photos as before photos that I can prove. Please say someone on here knows an attorney willing to take on a class action suit.
Well I'm not surprised when you put your son in charge of production - i guess things like this will happen! It's a shame a real shame - it appears to me that Roy's philosophy of integrity, quality, and customer satisfaction are once again gone! as for Lou well in my humble opinion write him a check and well he'll be your spokesman too! More people like you need to come forward and tell their stories to protect others from experiencing this kind of treatment. PERMA-SEAL THE PROVEN SOLUTION NOT!
I recently had work done by PermaSeal and until there is a big rain storm will not know if what was done fixed the issue but I am confident it did. As others have said the sales person was great and explained everything and I was comfortable selecting them to do the work. Had I known the work crew would have absolutely no respect for my home I would have made a different decision. Fully understanding the work was "dirty" work I expected I would need to do clean up. They did not clean anything and were reckless in the work they did. Left stones all over my basement, along with the dust. They made no effort to work carefully to manage the dust, climbed in/out my basement window and left mud all along the white basement wall from shoes/boots, etc. Then the mangled my Daisy plants that were outside the window and clearly not in the way of their wheelbarrow. They left stones all along the path of the wheelbarrow and a general disregard for my home. I had to take two days off work to clean their mess. Then the final straw ... instead of doing a post I wrote a note to them explaining the situation and weeks later absolutely no response. They have no respect and clearly have no idea what Customer Service is. Even a simple response of "Apology" would go a long way. How Lou Manfredini can continue to give Kudo's to them makes me wonder what Lou is thinking.
oh my Uncle Roy has a "B" rating on Angie's List go figure! I guess the wheels on the bus are falling off!
It is not just a rumor that Roy Spencer, the owner of permaseal is the president of the local better business bureau. That alone makes me not trust any BBB endorsement. I have an apt. with someone for an estimate. I will hear what they have to say but based on the above alone, and comments here, I don't think I would put my trust into a company that can get away with anything if something IS unethical and wrong, because the system in place to monitor it most definitely WILL be biased. I'd go with another company just in case.
http://chicago.bbb.org/article/bbbs-new-chairman-is-roy-spencer-of-perma-seal-basement-systems-18523
They lied to me many times. It was a big mistake to use Permaseal - they fooled me and I got burned in the end. They wouldn't complete the work and they didn't care. I trusted the wrong company and now I have to pay for it in extra charges and many hassles. Read the other reviews, not the BS ones that Permaseal posts to hide the truth. And when you complain to the BBB, they bury the complaint because the owner of Permaseal is head of the local BBB. Let’s hope complaints to the Illinois Attorney General will slow down these cheats.
Wow you have to check out Angie's list and see all the F's on Perma"s file outstanding Uncle Roy your doing a great job!
http://www.angieslist.com
Yes 'Luke'.
You`ll also find several other OWNERS of INSIDE system companies are/were on other Better Business Bureau board of directors, amazing!
They have time to CHIT CHAT, eat doughnuts and slurp coffee withe BBB BOD, rub them elbows with the SAME knuckleheads they PAY and same people who are SUPPOSEDLY (pffftttttttttttt) keeping a close-watchful eye on things...more garbage! Just like the politicians, PAID to look the OTHER way, follow the MONEY peeps! You`ll find the CREEPS, the cheats, the scammers.
By the way, PERMA is one of MANY 'basement system' companies/dealers/network, yup yup. Lots of cash to SPIN, misrepresent the facts.
Watch, listen to homeowners here please, Perma...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHYV7Sj_h74
Yet again, they misrepresented the ACTUAL-existing defects, exterior cracks etc and instead told and sold a bunhc of CRAP, inside system, happens all the time and done by many others as well, sure is!
Like here, Everdry, unfair sales practice...folks, they are NO 'Lifetime' guarantees in THIS business, not any real ones!
WATCH AND LISTEN PLEASE...
http://www.indiananewscenter.com/news/in-your-corner/83022467.html
Perma Seal and any other company who only or almost-always installs INSIDE SYSTEMS are incompetent and fairly often fraudulent, yes.
They do not competently and honestly IDENTIFY how-where the water is REALLY entering peoples basements, usually at-along the floor-wall joint aka cold joint aka cove aka isolation joint. INSTEAD, they`ll MISREPRESENT the actual problem(s) and tell homeowners crap like, you have a hydrostatic pressure problem under the floor and-or high water table etc and only our inside knothead system can solve that. They`ll tell everyone on the planet they need an inside system, NONSENSE!
MOST homeowners actual dang problems are one or more of the following...cracks, cracked parging and other openings on the EXTERIOR of block, brick, stone basement walls and the ONLY actual-solution to STOP that water from entering those existing-defects is EXTERIOR waterproofing, NOT damproofing, not digging down 1-2', not extending the downspout extensions 50 miles away, not raising and sloping the stuuupid grade, not mudjacking slabs and NOT ANY inside water-diverting system w/a sump pump, nonsense!
Your exterior walls were NOT 'waterproofed' when BUILT and not backfilled w/all gravel.That black stuff ya might see on the outside of walls is just thin-damproofing junk, doesn`t last! Like paint, sheesh. When CAUSES many cracks, cracked-deteriorated parging is LATERAL SOIL PRESSURE and-or UNDERGROUND tree roots and-or concrete slab(s) or porch footing leaning-against-a-wall.YES there are some other possible causes of cracks or widening of existing cracks and subsequent leaks/seepage such when the house was built, if they used equipment near the house/could cause crack(S) etc OR vibrations from nearby construction, traffic etc.
Those who mostly or only install inside system do NOT repair/waterproof these exterior cracks, cracked-deteriorated parging etc AND do not remove, reduce ANY lateral soil pressure OFF the basement wall, do not remove any possible underground roots off the wall or concrete slabs/footings etc off the wall.When any of these are the CAUSE of a crack or wall bowing in AND the subsequent leaks/seepage then you MUST remove-reduce the cause! Hello? Installing ANY interior system does NOT.EVER do this, no it does not.
U S Army Corps of Eng`s...photos
http://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/AmherstSoilStudy/photos/photos.html
See what 'caused' the step cracks, what caused the vertical crack and subsequent leaks, mold, effloresecnce etc and, what caused the top 9 inches of basement wall to bow inward...pilasters FAILED to BRACE wall.
Gotta remove, reduce the weight, the pressure etc against the dumb wall AND, the exterior cracks are still OPEN, gotta waterproof those, sheesh.
Termites, ants, centipedes etc can easily enter homes/basements THROUGH exterior cracks as well, inside systems DON`T repair/waterproof those and...radon-soil gases ALSO enter through exterior openings AND installing an inside system creates MORE openings, gaps etc on inside for soil gases to enter, do these bubbleheads tell homeowners the TRUTH about any of this? Pftttttttttttttttt
Some homeowners will only need to hire an honest-exp`d plumber to snake their lateral line/clean out in basement...a blockage in the lateral line can CAUSE water to accumulate and then rise UP through a floor crack or any opening in the floor.Doesn`t mean anyone needs an inside system, no! Need to find-determine how/why water is accumulating under the floor, many are because of blockage in lateral line and others can be due to a CITY problem, pipes overwhelmed on those longer heavier rains which can cause water to back up and rise up through floor cracks etc.
Some get water in basement due to 1+ openings ABOVE ground-level such as openings in-under-around basement windows(new or old) or doors or 1+ open-cracked mortar joints, possible openings in chimney from ground level UP and so on.
Inside system Co`s either don`t care about WHERE the water is most often entering or are simply incompetent and simply want to sell peeps the ONE thing they do, thats right.
Photos, go ahead and eyeball them... http://picasaweb.google.com/101049034584960315932
The owner of Permaseal is on the Board of Directors of the Better Business Bureau. Its no wonder the BBB showed no assistance to the complainer.
We also have been extremely disappointed by our PermaSeal system; it failed during the last rainfall. The water NEVER hit the sump pump. The service rep just visited and basically wrote off the issue. I have a garden hose running into the system now (the service rep's suggestion) to "see if the water will flow to the pump". However, he just left so we're on our own again.
Here's a shot of the system failing starting to fail. within a few minutes it was a geyser.
by rljbar4
Permaseal has serviced thousands of consumers so to focus on less than 100 complaints and call the company and their staff fraudulent seems unfair.
Well unless your one of those complaints. but keep in mind that is only the BBB report they also have bad reports on Angies list, and other complaint boards too! and lets not forget any lawsuits that have been filled too. all I'm saying is buyer beware and be careful do your home work and find who you believe to be the best company! if that's perma god bless if not so be it!
Permaseal has serviced thousands of consumers so to focus on less than 100 complaints and call the company and their staff fraudulent seems unfair.
Well, we just discovered that our backyard underground drain from the sump is not working properly. It must be collapsed or compromised. The water is dumping out of both the ice guard right next to the house and the bubbler pot out in the yard. I wish our salesman sold us the proper discharge system for our yard which would provide an effective long-term solution (more than 3 years) to directing the water away from the house! Of course to spend all that money on a system you would hope the water could dump out NOT next to the house next to the sump making it work extra hard which also drains the battery on the back-up pump in a power-outage. We weren't told about the option of using PVC piping instead of the cheaper stuff. Then again, it seems this outside work is not covered by any kind of warranty which we weren't told about either.
I'm going to call as another posting by a Permasealer advises, and I will remain hopeful that they will want us to remain satisfied customers. I'll let you all know what happens... to be continued...
I work for perma-seal and doesnt suprise me that they will cover the mistakes that WE sometimes make. We are told what to say and do ALL THE TIME. If the job is not going work, we still have to do it anyway.Its impossible to be honest with a customer when my job is at risk.Not to mention the cheap labor thats behind all the work. Starting at 9bucks an hr.
P.S. the reason why I still work in this [censor] company is because its hard to find a new job!
Now now Delbert that's not nice in all honesty Roy is doing the best he can with what he has. And please leave Laura out of it she's doing an awesome job being his new HEAD girl! Oh where are my manors congrats to Roy on becoming the new BBB Chairman. Hmmm how long before all those complaints start disappearing... oops they already are!
I've known Roy Spencer for a long time and he is not a nice man. It does not surprise me that his company has had so many complaints. Based on my personal experience with the man, he is a very petty and jealous individual who cheats on his wife.
I just had work done by Permaseal last month, and it was WONDERFUL. The guy who came for the estimate was right on time, and did a full evaluation inside and outside of the foundation (called due to a leaking basement, previous ownder tried self-fix, didn't work). During the inspection, he confirmed it was a crack, assisted in opening the wall to look at the crack from the inside, and also discovered another crack in the foundation that I had overlooked. He didn't try to oversell, and was very informative during the whole process, as I did the walk-around with him. I also asked him about sump pumps, and got a battery back up sump installed, and the whole thing was under $1500.
The repair guys came the next week (maybe it was 2 weeks, can't remember), and they were very polite, and got the job done quickly, and it all looked very good. I would HIGHLY recommend them to anyone needing work done, as they were recommended to me by friends & family with similar experiences.
Perma-Seal is a family-owned local business that serves the Chicagoland and Northern Indiana areas. Not a big conglomerate, not a franchisee, not a "dealer", and is still under the guidance of the founder/owner Roy Spencer. After being in business for over 31 years, servicing nearly 200, 000 customers and with a referral rate of over 60%, it is a company that is ethical, moral and honest. Of course, like any business, we make mistakes - but the true sign of a good company is that they stand behind their work and make it right. Should you have an unresolved issue with Perma-Seal - please do not hesitate to contact us directly at [protected]. Our team is comprised of hard-working people with a great work ethic, superior training and desire to help.
western springs people suck, they are the biggest bunch of whiners in the western suburbs. typically no-it-all-of nothings. Clay tiles are ancient history. Get over it. Yes you should go by the lastest codes and better. The codes are the minimum standards. There are reasons for them. As for the plumbing repair, nine times out of ten, a contractor works at a house, and guess what happens? Coincidentally, something breaks. The homeowner says "well it wasn't broke before you got here". So I suppose that the contractor is responsible for everything that goes wrong from the time they show up till the time they leave and beyond. Get a grip. If you weren't worried about the money, (like I'm sure that's true western springs), then get this, you got a sound basement for the rest of your days guaranteed! For the same cost that decent folk would have to pay. because it would just be wrong to charge a pain in the neck surcharge right?
p.s. 65 complaints? out of thousands of customers. get the facts people!
BBB processed a total of 76 complaints about Perma-Seal Basement Systems, Inc. in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total of 76 complaints closed in 36 months, 37 were closed in the last year.
These complaints concerned :
2 regarding Billing or Collection Issues
1 - Failure to substantiate charges
1 - None of the Above - Credit, Billing or Collection Complaint Issue
5 regarding Contract Issues
1 - Failure to honor a contract or agreement
4 - None of the Above - Contract Complaint Issue
8 regarding Customer Service Issues
1 - Failure to provide promised assistance or support for products or services
2 - Inappropriate behavior by customer service personnel
5 - None of the Above - Customer Service Complaint Issue
1 regarding Delivery Issues
1 - None of the Above - Delivery Complaint Issue
8 regarding Guarantee or Warranty Issues
1 - Disputed warranty coverage and/or terms
2 - Failure to provide promised written warranty or guarantee
5 - None of the Above - Guarantee or Warranty Complaint Issue
11 regarding Product Issues
4 - Defective, damaged, or incorrect product received
7 - None of the Above - Product Quality Complaint Issue
8 regarding Refund or Exchange Issues
1 - Failure to honor promised refunds, exchanges, or credit
3 - Failure to honor refund, exchange or credit policies
4 - None of the Above - Refund or Exchange Complaint Issue
8 regarding Repair Issues
1 - Delayed completion of repair
1 - Failure to honor a repair estimate or agreement
2 - Improper or inferior repair
4 - Repairs resulted in additional damage
6 regarding Sales Practice Issues
1 - None of the Above - Sales Complaint Issue
1 - Sales presentation did not disclose key conditions of the offer
1 - Sales presentation misrepresented the product
2 - Sales presentation misrepresented the service
1 - Sales presentation not consistent with the written agreement
19 regarding Service Issues
Interesting enough I too have heard that anxious salesman with the company have taken the less than conservative path to repair basements. Companies headed in this direction are like many of those publicly traded companies. The interest of shareholders somehow becomes more important than the customer. That trend in America should be evident just like the Auto Industry, The banking Industry, The health industry, The real estate industry and others. Do we really need big business ethics in our homes. The home improvement industry should we really accept this? Let me just say is this the kind of company you would want in your home? Or is this the kind of company you would buy stock from?
I have had work done by Perma Seal and my experience was quite different. I could not have asked for a more professional well orginized organization. The sales man was very informative along with the book. The price was cheaper than 3 of the 4 other competitors I had look at my issue. I learned more in the hour and half it took to write up and look at my basement than the other 4 companies before combined hour and 15 minutes it took to look at and quote. Literially 4 companies averageing 20 minutes apiece to give me an estimate ranging from 5400 to 17300. Perma Seal came in at 6143 and finished the job at 6143 with all permits and fees included in that price. It has been 2 years and everything has worked out great! When they left everything was clean and almost exactly as they said it would be. It is sad you this experience but me and 4 of my friends and co workers have had a completely different one.
Prema-Seal is crumbling form the top down over 65 complaints with the BBB in the last 3 years and over 35 in the last year! And still with an A+ rating with the BBB! Hmmm you think because Roy Spencer is on the executive board might have something to do with that? Seams to me if Perma-Seal really cared about their customers complaints like this simply would be handled quickly and with customer satisfaction in mind! Shame Roy is blowing 30 years of building a great company in such a short time!
Trust in Roy - I don't think so!
I actually worked for a Basement Systems dealership until very recently and I agree that this guy was doing his job the wrong way. Everything about Basement Systems and all of its dealerships positively screams, "TRUSTWORTHY!". Of course it's made to look that way, but we're all taught from the second we're hired to practice it as well. And it's hammered into our very souls. It's hard not to trust one of the employees, because you usually can. It's sad to see that this guy was so desperate for the comission that he would risk his and his company's reputation for $500. While it's true that most (if not all) Basement Systems dealerships no longer carry or install clay tile, there is a life-of-the-structure transferrable warranty on every (full-perimeter) system installed. He should have recommended what they manufacture now, but not pushed as hard as he could for a complete redo. It was Permaseal's responsibility to simply service the system.
If this were at my old dealership, that plumbing bill would have been paid - no questions asked - right out of that guy's paycheck.
That being said, each dealership is very separate. Each is fully owned and operated by different people, and corporate has very little control over how each dealership is run. All they can do is tell owners and employees how they do things in CT and how well they've worked, and tell us we should do the same. Employees go to several training sessions a year that are held by the corporate office in Connecticut. I didn't meet many of the owners of other dealerships, including Roy Spencer (although I do know his name), but I do know that most of the owners practice Connecticut's way and strive to uphold the core values of Basement Systems: Leadership, Integrity, Responsibilty, and Innovation. I also know that, unfortunately, some do not.
i worked on basements for 10 years .clay tiles are crap the gravel they used when they installed the clay tile mabie 30 years ago is usually plugged with dirt or sand, the gravel the used has flat sides so it compacts and wont let water pass, the best way to do it is with plastic perforated drain tile and round river rock, the water can pass easily through the round gravel because it cant be compacted, never use clay tile its not perforated with holes so water can pass through it to your sump pump
lol, on what earth do you think that messing with your perimeter drain allows you to stay grandfathered in. If you change anything about a system like then you have to comply with the current laws not the old one. Even some more indepth repairs would require you to comply with the new codes not the old ones. About the only thing you can do to a system like that without having to comply with the new regs is replacing a fitting or two, anything more than that and it likely falls under the new regs.
As for the clay tiles. HELLO, who on the planet would not know they still make clay tiles. Some home improvement centers carry them. You can still find clay flower pots absolutely everywhere, and they still do clay tile roofing. You were just WAY to gullible, at what point do you accept at least some responsibility for being incredibly stupid and accepting everything a salesman tells you?
You started this whole mess because of a leaky sink drain? Come on, you got to be kidding. That is the most easy repair, certainly you don't plan on calling a plumber for a repair that probably needs 5 cents of teflon tape and a wrench. If it needs more than that then likely it was bad in the first place.
It is sad to see that one bad apple can spoil the whole 20 year rep that a company has established. You may well be seniors and that may excuss something but life experience should have given you some clues as to the poor advice you were given from the "expert". You had your doubts, why would you not call the company and say, "hey, I don't agree with this persons view" Is GM or Honda to blame because a tire blew or the glove compartment didn't work? Come on, sales men are sales men and that is what it is, If you are a senior then you above all should know that if it sounds like ### it probably is. A second opinoin is the way to go. I know that and I am only 37. Maybe a senoir in some circles but not really. Come on, "THEY DON"T MAKE CLAY TILE ANY MORE?" It's not the worlds fault you would have fallen for "Magic Beans"